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henpecked
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PostSubject: Clipped/Flighted   Sun Oct 16, 2011 6:55 am

To clip or not to clip ? This article by Pamela Clark is the best i've read on this subject and wanted to share ,not start a war. I'm sure we all could say i wish i knew what i know now when i first got my bird ,this is more true in my case then most others but i'm learning as i go .
http://www.indonesian-parrot-project.org/Library/pam2.html
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patdbunny
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PostSubject: Re: Clipped/Flighted   Sun Oct 16, 2011 12:44 pm

I do agree that flight/clip are not simple decisions. I also definitely agree that undesired behavior/aggression are not definitively solved by clipping a bird. For most people it is probably easier to live with/manage a clipped bird, But certain human-perceived undesirable behaviors may not be able to be changed by clipping or even training. I know of a well known behaviorist who's euthanized their own bird due to behaviors they themselves could not change/manage and that bird was flighted and trained so it has nothing to do with flight/clip.

Goes back to my go-to as to why birds do some things they do - Because they're just that way. Some things you can't change in them, you just have to learn to live with them or get rid of the bird.

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ScooterNScotty
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PostSubject: Re: Clipped/Flighted   Sun Oct 16, 2011 3:25 pm

I'm not as excited by the article as I'd hoped. It does recap the major arguments for and against but it fails to put each piece into perspective, which is what I'd really like to see done. I also agree that the decision is not black and white and depends a lot on personal circumstances and individual personalities both avian and human. But I don't think this article is as unbiased as it tries to purport.

One thing that jumped out to me was the rather scathing segment suggesting owners who clip are ignorant, citing as an example the owner who goes to the groomer for clipping more than once or twice a year. A lot of birds kept in household situations do NOT go through an orderly molting process. They molt more or less continuously. It is, in fact, necessary to inspect wings often to maintain a clip if you are depending on it, particularly with small very athletic fliers who don't need a lot of flight feathers to get around. While I would not suggest an owner be so hands off as to go to the groomer monthly to have the wings inspected, it's also not the same as saying the owner is too uninvolved to know what the molting process is. That kind of tone creeps in to this article often and it put me off a bit.

It also carries an undertone that the decision to clip comes from inadequacy on the part of the owner, an inability to rise to the occasion. It says "the owner of a flighted bird must not be absent-minded". That's suggesting that it is actually possible for a person to guarantee that they will never make a mistake. It's suggesting that its possible to eliminate the increased risk of some types of accident by being super-focused. In fact, the risk of some types of accident to a flighted bird is there and must be taken into account in making the decision no matter how confident the individual is that her or she will never make that mistake. It is irresponsible to base a decision on an unrealistic expectation of personal perfection IMO. The risk need to be evaluated in the context of the benefits, not in the context of ego or good intentions.

The article I really want to see (and I'll concede that the data may not be in hand) would touch on the following points:

  • How much time is spent in flight by a wild bird, separated into categories based on foraging style (ground vs. arboreal for example).

  • Accidental death statistics for birds in household situations including if possible information about the nature of the accident and the flight status of the bird and its species.

  • Statistics on measures of health in birds that are flighted, clipped with no special attention to exercise, clipped but given flapping exercise, lightly clipped.

  • Statistics on in-practice measure of freedom such as:

    • How much time is spent in flight by an unclipped bird IN A NORMAL HOUSEHOLD SITUATION. Not a zoo specimen in a large flight cage or aviary. I'd also be inclined to separate out statistics where the entire household is geared toward flighted birds, such that the person is essentially living in an aviary. I've heard of a few like this where it's one or two adults, no other pets and the entire house has been customized for the birds -- this is not a standard to which I think it is appropriate to hold the average pet owner.

    • How much time is spent in the cage by clipped and unclipped birds IN A NORMAL HOUSEHOLD SITUATION.

    • How much time is spent getting out of the house by clipped and unclipped birds IN A NORMAL HOUSEHOLD SITUATION

  • Measures of quality of life separated into flighted and clipped birds such as:
    • incidence of plucking
    • incidence of problematic screaming
    • rate of occurrence of minor health problems
    • time spent preening, playing, etc.
    • time spent "getting around", either climbing or flying to other locations
    • time spent exercising including vigorous play, flapping by clipped birds, flying.

  • Measures of quality of companionship for the human such as
    • rate of surrender
    • reported behavioral problems
    • subjective reported "happiness" by the owner

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henpecked
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PostSubject: Re: Clipped/Flighted   Sun Oct 16, 2011 4:27 pm

I'll concede that it was somewhat bais , i also concede that flighted birds are more than the "average" owner can manage and still give as much freedom as a clipped bird is afforded. But it was one of the better articles on the subject.The points that SnS offers for a fair comparison are true measure of " quality of life" for a pet parrot. I've always said Jake enjoys more freedom than most flighted birds. Short of living on a tropical island with no predators or neighbors and being able to keep your fids outside, free flighted, everything else is a compromise. Ahouse is still a cage and a harness a ball and chain.
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VickiNumbers
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PostSubject: Re: Clipped/Flighted   Sun Oct 16, 2011 5:07 pm

Now THAT would be a research project I could sink my teeth into, and an article I'd LOVE to see.

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Margaret
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PostSubject: Re: Clipped/Flighted   Sun Oct 16, 2011 8:09 pm

I'm with the Author of article about that:

Quote :
However, never would I attempt to state that my choice is the right one
for all parrot owners. Each owner should feel free to carefully examine
both sides of the issue to determine what choice may be the right one
for him and his birds.
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ScooterNScotty
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PostSubject: Re: Clipped/Flighted   Sun Oct 16, 2011 8:15 pm

As am I.

Margaret wrote:
I'm with the Author of article about that:

Quote :
However, never would I attempt to state that my choice is the right one
for all parrot owners. Each owner should feel free to carefully examine
both sides of the issue to determine what choice may be the right one
for him and his birds.
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RogerP
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PostSubject: Re: Clipped/Flighted   Sun Oct 16, 2011 9:38 pm

Noooooooooooo.......!!!!!!! Not the clipping issue!!!!! The bane of all bird forums! The self destruct button in a post! Run, run for your lives!

.......Wait, no self destruct, no outbreak of war, no people freaking out? Just a knowledgable, open, non-judgemental debate? HOW WEIRD!

Must be Paradise I guess!

(Sorry all, couldn't resist)
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Vikki
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Plus the 180+ various bird from finch to Hyacinth at the rescue where I volunteer and live...
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PostSubject: Re: Clipped/Flighted   Sun Oct 16, 2011 10:27 pm

Agree with you on all of it. Clipping or not clipping is purely based on the comfort level of the owners. At the rescue we clip most of the larger birds only because we tend to let them out often and having 15 flighted macaws in a room is a lot more to handle than the norm. My personal birds are not clipped and are allowed to fly while supervised. Pickle, the demon, is clipped (as he is known to do the ninja fly by attacks on everyone but Bryan) but the little bastard can fly like a viper no matter if he is clipped or not. I'm convinced that he could probably fly without feathers. Shocked

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coral
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PostSubject: Re: Clipped/Flighted   Sun Oct 16, 2011 10:32 pm

RogerP wrote:
Noooooooooooo.......!!!!!!! Not the clipping issue!!!!! The bane of all bird forums! The self destruct button in a post! Run, run for your lives!

.......Wait, no self destruct, no outbreak of war, no people freaking out? Just a knowledgable, open, non-judgemental debate? HOW WEIRD!

Must be Paradise I guess!

(Sorry all, couldn't resist)




Aww roger you beat me to it! i wanted to say something like that lol
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GlassOnion
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PostSubject: Re: Clipped/Flighted   Sun Oct 16, 2011 11:47 pm

RogerP wrote:
Noooooooooooo.......!!!!!!! Not the clipping issue!!!!! The bane of all bird forums! The self destruct button in a post! Run, run for your lives!

Bahahahaha!

Capt- you said a 'flighted bird' is harder to manage for an 'average' owner. I do have to say that I think the 'average' person should not keep birds to begin with. Wink
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patdbunny
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PostSubject: Re: Clipped/Flighted   Mon Oct 17, 2011 12:00 am

My experience with Minion and Reep right now is that they are pretty easy to deal with flighted. This is a different experience than my past flight experiences from over 10 years ago. I believe part of it is the layout I have in my current house as opposed to my last house. My last house I couldn't have as many perches and "authorized" landing areas as I do now. Also my current house allows for the birds to do fly through loops and go back into the living room where most of the perch spots are.

I think a reasonable and meaningful tally of data can be compiled to address SnS's points if various bird forums are lurked. Maybe we can start a thread posting lost/dead birds we read about on other forums, lists, CL's adds, etc. and fill in what we can on the points SnS brought up. My curiosity's piqued.

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Disclaimer: The views expressed in this article are those of the author and do not necessarily represent the views of, and should not be attributed to, the U.S. Department of Justice.
Do not attempt this at home. I'm a professional.
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Last edited by patdbunny on Mon Oct 17, 2011 12:06 am; edited 1 time in total
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henpecked
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Join date : 2011-05-18
Age : 60
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My Birds : Jake hen YN (his)
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Kong hen Panama
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Binkie hen YN
Many other Amazons
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PostSubject: Re: Clipped/Flighted   Mon Oct 17, 2011 12:01 am

Probably true.
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henpecked
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Join date : 2011-05-18
Age : 60
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My Birds : Jake hen YN (his)
Stacy hen YN (hers)
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Kong hen Panama
Nitro male YN
Micky male Red Lored
Binkie hen YN
Many other Amazons
Posts : 1372

PostSubject: Re: Clipped/Flighted   Mon Oct 17, 2011 12:04 am

Maybe a blank form that you check off when you hear of a mishap.Perhaps a form we could PM to owners who have a mishap. Just a survey,no personal info.
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patdbunny
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PostSubject: Re: Clipped/Flighted   Mon Oct 17, 2011 12:29 am

10/15/2011
San Diego County-Fallbrook
Lost flighted immature tame male von der deckens hornbill. Described as "Very friendly and curious, likes to land on your head or shoulder."
Other details unknown.
Source: ASA list

10/15/2011
San Diego County-La Jolla
CAG - Details unknown.
Source: CL

10/14/2011
California
Cockatiel - "got out" and flew away.
Source: AA forum

7/3/2011
San Diego County-El Cajon
Flighted Sun Conure
Source: CL posted/reposted 10/12/2011

10/12/2011
San Diego County - South Park
CAG - Details unknown
Source: CL

10/11/2011
San Diego County - Poway
"Red and Green" macaw - pic looks like a greenwing
Source: CL

10/9/2011
Lexington, KY
Sun Conure- fully flighted outside on someone's shoulder and flew off
Source: AA forum

10/9/2011
San Diego County - Mira Mesa
Cockatiel - flew out the door when family member opened back door.
Source: CL

There are also parrot lost/found:
http://www.parrotalert.com/
http://www.911parrotalert.com/

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Disclaimer: The views expressed in this article are those of the author and do not necessarily represent the views of, and should not be attributed to, the U.S. Department of Justice.
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coral
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PostSubject: Re: Clipped/Flighted   Mon Oct 17, 2011 2:35 pm

thats so sad that there are so many lost parrots Sad
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ScooterNScotty
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Blanco (Caballo Blanco)
*Whitefaced male cockatiel
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PostSubject: Re: Clipped/Flighted   Mon Oct 17, 2011 3:39 pm

I looked a bit into getting a grant to do research, but I'm stuck in a difficult niche -- most grants appear to require applicants to be in biology or veterinary medicine. I suppose I might be able to get my vet to be a co-author... or maybe I should pitch a survey to Bird Talk with promise of an article? Just having access to their mailing list would be a good start, I have a computer and there's always Survey Monkey.

Or better yet, Bird Talk and AAV, with one survey to vets and another to owners. Wonder how many would play?
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Pickle - 16 yr old Hahn's Macaw
Ecko - 26 yr old Hahn's Macaw

Plus the 180+ various bird from finch to Hyacinth at the rescue where I volunteer and live...
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PostSubject: Re: Clipped/Flighted   Mon Oct 17, 2011 3:48 pm

I like that idea. I've wanted to write an article for Bird Talk for a long time but I don't know what subject matter to approach. I'm no expert, but I feel with my experience I could impart a bit of foresight and knowledge.

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RogerP
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PostSubject: Re: Clipped/Flighted   Mon Oct 17, 2011 3:52 pm

Vikki wrote:
I like that idea. I've wanted to write an article for Bird Talk for a long time but I don't know what subject matter to approach. I'm no expert, but I feel with my experience I could impart a bit of foresight and knowledge.

I think anything you contribute surrounding rescue organizations and rescue birds would be valuable for anyone looking at this route to get a bird. In that area, I would think that you would be very much an expert!
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Vikki
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Join date : 2011-05-19
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Arthur - 12 yr old Jardines Parrot
Pickle - 16 yr old Hahn's Macaw
Ecko - 26 yr old Hahn's Macaw

Plus the 180+ various bird from finch to Hyacinth at the rescue where I volunteer and live...
Posts : 811

PostSubject: Re: Clipped/Flighted   Mon Oct 17, 2011 3:54 pm

Will have to pitch the idea to the mag and see if they bite then, thanks!

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