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 Arthur update....making progress I think

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RogerP
Scarlet Macaw
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Join date : 2011-05-19
Age : 50
Location : Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
My Birds : ~Merlin - Maroon Bellied Conure
(Hatchdate May 15, 2010)

~Arthur - Red Bellied Parrot
(Hatchdate January 7, 2009, rescued October 7, 2011)

Posts : 813

PostSubject: Arthur update....making progress I think   Wed Nov 09, 2011 4:04 am

So Arthur has been pretty much afraid of any stick I bring near the cage, no matter how small. He has now been in his new cage for almost a week, without coming out at this point. I figured I would give him some time to get used to the cage and get used to me being around the cage, but not messing with him. He now will travel all over the cage, will play with the toys and has now started coming down to be beside me (still in the cage) while I sit on the couch.

I have been working on getting him used to the clicker and that it means treats. Tonight I decided to start smaller as far as "sticks" go. There was a sucker stick left on the end table by one of my kids that was fairly clean. I decided to use the non-candy end, to see if Arthur would target, and lo and behold, it actually worked!! I spent a half hour with him following the "stick". Sometimes he would not let go, but most times he just touched it.

He is at least moving in the right direction! He also has not snapped at me in almost a week. I hope I didn't jinx it by saying anything. Hopefully things will continue. Just thought I would share!
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ScooterNScotty
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* (hatched 3/2010)

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Blanco (Caballo Blanco)
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PostSubject: Re: Arthur update....making progress I think   Wed Nov 09, 2011 7:51 am

Woo hooo!
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dusty
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PostSubject: Re: Arthur update....making progress I think   Wed Nov 09, 2011 9:46 am

good show roger, you are going to do it...keep up the good work


dusty
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flappinhappy
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PostSubject: Re: Arthur update....making progress I think   Wed Nov 09, 2011 12:02 pm

ScooterNScotty wrote:
Woo hooo!

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VickiNumbers
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Join date : 2011-05-21
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PostSubject: Re: Arthur update....making progress I think   Wed Nov 09, 2011 1:26 pm

What THEY said! Woohoo!

And that's great creative thinking, to use a sucker stick. That never would have occurred to me. Way to go!

_________________

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....... ~*~ Vicki ~*~
.... Allie.... Sam.... Caesar
...... Mack...... Micky


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evil chicken
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Join date : 2011-05-18
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PostSubject: Re: Arthur update....making progress I think   Wed Nov 09, 2011 2:37 pm

Great for you and Arthur!!

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monkey It's kinda concerning how that's not a cookie...
Sam - or Cool ; Ducky - or ; and Eric - or I love you (Hahaha! And me & Chicky Baby!!! )
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RogerP
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Join date : 2011-05-19
Age : 50
Location : Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
My Birds : ~Merlin - Maroon Bellied Conure
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~Arthur - Red Bellied Parrot
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PostSubject: Re: Arthur update....making progress I think   Sun Nov 13, 2011 12:39 am

Update: Arthur continues to target well, now all over the cage, continuing to use the sucker stick, as he is afraid of anything bigger or longer. Still no progress on him letting me near him with the door open, but he will take treats through the open door.

Oh, he has also learned his first trick (apart from targeting). I managed to capture him turning around on his perch, and have it fairly consistent on a verbal cue!

Small steps, at least in the right direction!
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evil chicken
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PostSubject: Re: Arthur update....making progress I think   Sun Nov 13, 2011 12:41 am

Small steps are still steps!

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monkey It's kinda concerning how that's not a cookie...
Sam - or Cool ; Ducky - or ; and Eric - or I love you (Hahaha! And me & Chicky Baby!!! )
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Margaret
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PostSubject: Re: Arthur update....making progress I think   Mon Nov 14, 2011 5:27 pm

RogerP wrote:
Small steps, at least in the right direction!



I'm happy for you and Arthur, how is Merlin's reacting?
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RogerP
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Join date : 2011-05-19
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PostSubject: Re: Arthur update....making progress I think   Tue Nov 15, 2011 3:29 am

Merlin seems fine with Arthur being here, although he has this desire to pick fights by crawling all over Arthur's cage. I have allowed the interactions to a point, but when they start attacking each other through the cage bars, I am separating them.

Still no progress with hands around Arthur other than through the cage bars. He will allow skritches through the bars but not if I open the cage door yet. I am trying very hard not to push too hard and go too fast, but it feels like I am not gaining any ground. Though having said that, Arthur seems anxious to interact when I sit next to the cage (probably just wants the treats).
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VickiNumbers
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Join date : 2011-05-21
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My Birds : Allie ~ Yellow Sided Green Cheek Conure
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Mack ~ Lutino Cockatiel
Forté and Duncan ~ Budgerigars
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PostSubject: Re: Arthur update....making progress I think   Tue Nov 15, 2011 11:10 pm

Have you tried targeting him onto or across your hand? Without moving your hand, just target him onto it, or put your hand in such a place that be has to use it like a bridge. Might something like that make your hand less scary? You wouldn't be moving to him, he'd be moving to you. And as long as you don't move your hand for a bit when he's on it, he should gain confidence that it's a benign entity.

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~Antoine de Saint Exupery

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....... ~*~ Vicki ~*~
.... Allie.... Sam.... Caesar
...... Mack...... Micky


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kaeladedah
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PostSubject: Re: Arthur update....making progress I think   Tue Nov 15, 2011 11:19 pm

I would try literally just sitting near his cage with my hand in the door.
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VickiNumbers
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Sam ~ Blue Front Amazon
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Mack ~ Lutino Cockatiel
Forté and Duncan ~ Budgerigars
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PostSubject: Re: Arthur update....making progress I think   Tue Nov 15, 2011 11:47 pm

KayLayUh wrote:
I would try literally just sitting near his cage with my hand in the door.
Duh! Why didn't I think of that?

_________________

"Many have forgotten this truth, but you must not forget it. You remain responsible forever, for what you have tamed."
~Antoine de Saint Exupery

.....
....... ~*~ Vicki ~*~
.... Allie.... Sam.... Caesar
...... Mack...... Micky


http://BunchesOfBudgies.blogspot.com/
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ScooterNScotty
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Join date : 2011-05-24
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* "Normal" male Green-cheeked Conure
* (hatched 3/2010)

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*male Cape Parrot
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Blanco (Caballo Blanco)
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PostSubject: Re: Arthur update....making progress I think   Wed Nov 16, 2011 1:18 am

And given how shy he seems to be, maybe reward any movement at all in the direction of the hand/door.
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RogerP
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Join date : 2011-05-19
Age : 50
Location : Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
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PostSubject: Re: Arthur update....making progress I think   Wed Nov 16, 2011 2:48 am

Well, I tried the "hand in the door" idea tonight, and as far as movement toward the door goes, I now possess a "wonderful" puncture wound on my left pinkie for my trouble (hurt like hell!).

He is fine as long as I am giving him treats or target training, but anything beyond that and he is psycho bird. Compared to Merlin, Arthur's bites are harder and hurt more.

Would I be wrong here in trying a pair of tan leather gloves, so I can take the bite without flinching, and just let him know that will not go away? Or is that going to set things back once again, since it feels kinda like flooding?

I seem to be stalled again. Though I must admit, I have a killer toothache tonight, so my mood may have been a factor.
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ScooterNScotty
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Join date : 2011-05-24
Age : 56
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My Birds : Scooter
* "Normal" male Green-cheeked Conure
* (hatched 3/2010)

Scotty
*male Cape Parrot
*(HD unk ~2008)

Blanco (Caballo Blanco)
*Whitefaced male cockatiel
*(HD unk, found 4/2012)
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PostSubject: Re: Arthur update....making progress I think   Wed Nov 16, 2011 4:14 am

Depends if the gloves scare him or not. I've found a band aidor tape help me with Scooter, but it does not worry him. Scotty, it worries, and I need to use the other hand to step him up if I'm still so equipped.
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kaeladedah
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PostSubject: Re: Arthur update....making progress I think   Wed Nov 16, 2011 10:02 am

I would avoid using any kind of glove to handle a bird unless absolutely necessary. I'm thinking whomever owned him previously probably either had him locked in a cage with no handling for his entire life OR he was mistreated by men.

Does he seem better with your wife?
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Vikki
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Join date : 2011-05-19
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My Birds : Sebastian - 7 yr old Harlequin Macaw
Arthur - 12 yr old Jardines Parrot
Pickle - 16 yr old Hahn's Macaw
Ecko - 26 yr old Hahn's Macaw

Plus the 180+ various bird from finch to Hyacinth at the rescue where I volunteer and live...
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PostSubject: Re: Arthur update....making progress I think   Wed Nov 16, 2011 10:27 am

Try a small towel of a neutral color. Fluffy dish towels work well for smaller birds. Just wrap it around your hand like a boxer and see if that works. In some cases, especially if the bird was badly treated prior to your getting them, they will have a complete fear of hands, no matter what is covering them.
If all else fails and that seems to be the case, try a mobile perch, like a stick or a branch. Once you have him out and away from the cage you can transfer him to your hand. if you're afraid of flinching, leave him on the stick until you can take a seat, then put him on your knee and work with him that way.
At the rescue when we have really freaked out birds, we towel them (completely cover them with the towel) put them in our laps and stroke their backs and heads through the towel until they quiet. Then you can slowly uncover their head as you continue to stroke and coo to them. That always seems to calm them down enough to make them realize that you are the good guy.

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kaeladedah
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PostSubject: Re: Arthur update....making progress I think   Wed Nov 16, 2011 11:07 am

Vikki wrote:
At the rescue when we have really freaked out birds, we towel them (completely cover them with the towel) put them in our laps and stroke their backs and heads through the towel until they quiet. Then you can slowly uncover their head as you continue to stroke and coo to them. That always seems to calm them down enough to make them realize that you are the good guy.

I actually do this with Piper to give him his medication. The great thing is this works with birds of all sizes and will allow you to work with them more easily later on.
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Vikki
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Join date : 2011-05-19
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Location : BLAIRSTOWN NJ
My Birds : Sebastian - 7 yr old Harlequin Macaw
Arthur - 12 yr old Jardines Parrot
Pickle - 16 yr old Hahn's Macaw
Ecko - 26 yr old Hahn's Macaw

Plus the 180+ various bird from finch to Hyacinth at the rescue where I volunteer and live...
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PostSubject: Re: Arthur update....making progress I think   Wed Nov 16, 2011 11:10 am

Exactly... and what we do is when the birds aren't freaked out, later on, you make a game with the towel. Find one that turns into their favorite and play tug of war and peek a boo with it as often as you can. Eventually when they see that towel they will think "Cool! Its playtime!"

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RogerP
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Join date : 2011-05-19
Age : 50
Location : Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
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PostSubject: Re: Arthur update....making progress I think   Wed Nov 16, 2011 1:14 pm

Arthur seems to be less aggressive/fearful of my wife, but she does not really interact with him, and she is too scared to go near him for fear of being bitten, so I don't think that's a solution.

I don't want to use a glove unless I have no other choice, but I was not sure how else to move on from targeting in the cage. I was thinking that at least if he then decided to bite I would be less inclined to flinch or pull away

I can't use a stick of any kind at this point, because Arthur freaks out when a stick comes anywhere near him, so the mobile perch is out too, unfortunately.

I can try to towel him in the cage to bring him out to my lap, if you think that won't freak him out too badly. He seems to freak out if I enter the cage for any reason. I have a pale pink one I have used in the past, and a pale blue. Should I be using something white or cream colored?

I just really want to continue moving forward and if he cannot trust me in the least to be anywhere near him, I don't know how we continue moving forward. Or am I pushing too hard, too fast again. I am sorry to be a pest, but I have no real help here with rescue birds, so you guys and gals are my only resource.
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Vikki
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Join date : 2011-05-19
Age : 52
Location : BLAIRSTOWN NJ
My Birds : Sebastian - 7 yr old Harlequin Macaw
Arthur - 12 yr old Jardines Parrot
Pickle - 16 yr old Hahn's Macaw
Ecko - 26 yr old Hahn's Macaw

Plus the 180+ various bird from finch to Hyacinth at the rescue where I volunteer and live...
Posts : 811

PostSubject: Re: Arthur update....making progress I think   Wed Nov 16, 2011 1:30 pm

Not being a pest at all, I deal with this issue on a daily basis it seems so I will help the best I can.

With the towel, use as muted a color as you can. You don't want a flaming orange towel that screams at him when you go to get him. Also, try rubbing dried lavender on the towel. There are several dried plants that offer a calming effect when their scent is put into an item. Chamomile is a good one too. You don't' want to use oils though, too strong a scent.

Unfortunately, if the little guys is freaked no matter what you do, the towel is the only way to go and you will have to chase him and freak him out a bit. I know, you don't want to give him a heart attack, but for bad cases like this, you have to force your hand sometimes. yes, he'll scream and bite and well, he's afraid to come out so he will. But if you keep at it, do it every day like clock work and make his time outside the cage worthwhile, fun and playful, after a time, he will realize that you're not there to hurt him. Be as gentle as you can with the toweling, but the best way, as I mentioned to others before... wait til he's on the floor of his cage, cover him entirely with the towel and grab him firmly around the neck with your finger and thumb. Don't worry, you won't choke him. Bird windpipes are minuscule. A macaw windpipe is about the width of a pencil so you can imagine how small your birds is. It takes a lot to choke them. Just be sure, no matter what you do, that you don't squeeze them around the chest.

If he flaps about and fusses after you grab him, swaddle him with the towel and grasp him around the wings with your other hand. Sometimes it helps to hold them around the neck backwards (with their beak pointed up your arm) so that you are free to do what you need to with their bodies.

I know its frightening and I know dealing with the screaming and fussing is sometimes terrifying, but you have to keep at it. It may take him a few weeks, it might take him a few months, but you can get him to realize eventually that being out is fun and he will want to come out.

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ScooterNScotty
Hyacinth Macaw
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Join date : 2011-05-24
Age : 56
Location : Southern California
My Birds : Scooter
* "Normal" male Green-cheeked Conure
* (hatched 3/2010)

Scotty
*male Cape Parrot
*(HD unk ~2008)

Blanco (Caballo Blanco)
*Whitefaced male cockatiel
*(HD unk, found 4/2012)
Posts : 2248

PostSubject: Re: Arthur update....making progress I think   Fri Nov 18, 2011 8:03 pm

Why are gloves generally looked down upon in working with parrots? It's not clear to me that that's entirely a logical position. I can see that it might encourage certain people to go ahead and be rough and manhandle a bird, but those aren't the people who are going to listen to advice anyway... I can also see that if a bird had developed a fear of gloves as a result of being roughly handled with them, that might also be a factor. But I don't see that a glove is inherently bad, scary or any other negative thing. Sure the sudden appearance of a glove where none had been before might be a little alarming at first, but so might a new ring, nail polish, a new watch or any other change. For that matter, if they were always used to seeing us naked, clothes might be scary at first. Certainly Scotty doesn't much care for it when my husband puts on a hat! But if the gloved hand was the normal hand, or a frequently seen variation, I don't see that it would be any scarier than a regularly worn ring.

So what's the rationale?

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Vikki
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Join date : 2011-05-19
Age : 52
Location : BLAIRSTOWN NJ
My Birds : Sebastian - 7 yr old Harlequin Macaw
Arthur - 12 yr old Jardines Parrot
Pickle - 16 yr old Hahn's Macaw
Ecko - 26 yr old Hahn's Macaw

Plus the 180+ various bird from finch to Hyacinth at the rescue where I volunteer and live...
Posts : 811

PostSubject: Re: Arthur update....making progress I think   Fri Nov 18, 2011 9:05 pm

The way I see it and have been told, many rehomed birds have been vicitmized by the gloved hand and come to see it as a bad thing. Many people think to do this before anything else, so when they have a bird that starts to bite, they go for a glove. After a time, that doesn't work because most people expect a bird to change overnight and after several tries with the glove, give up and surrender the birds which is now terrorized and afraid of hands entirely. (and in "most people" I mean those who have little experience when handling any bird at all... not you guys)

And like you said, people who use gloves as a barrier are often unaware at how rough they are handling the bird because it desensitizes them, so the birds suffers in that way as well. For my reasoning alone, it is that one. I would rather get bitten through a towel and be able to subdue and soothe a terrified bird with a soft touch than manhandle it and be too afraid to ever come out again. Honestly the only time I have ever used a glove was with a very large bird who had very long,sharp talons and the leather was necessary, though the bird was trained on a glove and came out happily for me to hold.

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VickiNumbers
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Join date : 2011-05-21
Age : 49
Location : Denver, CO, United States
My Birds : Allie ~ Yellow Sided Green Cheek Conure
Mickey ~ Turquoise Green Cheek Conure
Sam ~ Blue Front Amazon
Caesar ~ Bronze Wing Pionus (actually my HUSBAND's bird *grin*)
Mack ~ Lutino Cockatiel
Forté and Duncan ~ Budgerigars
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PostSubject: Re: Arthur update....making progress I think   Fri Nov 18, 2011 10:04 pm

Harumph. As a result of this conversation, I'm going to condition Allie to not care about gloves any more than she cares about my hats. Just because I'm that way.

_________________

"Many have forgotten this truth, but you must not forget it. You remain responsible forever, for what you have tamed."
~Antoine de Saint Exupery

.....
....... ~*~ Vicki ~*~
.... Allie.... Sam.... Caesar
...... Mack...... Micky


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