I'm home and he's "speaking" to me!

patdbunny wrote:

if he bites, I ladder him..

What's laddering?

VickiNumbers wrote:

What's laddering?

Laddering is repeatedly asking them to step up from hand to hand. At least, that's the usage of the term I'm familiar with.

Roz, I'm curious about your experience using that technique as a correction. I've done it as a way to get him occupied with something constructive and to give him something to do which I know I can reward. But I've been reluctant to see it as a "correction" or "negative consequence" because I wouldn't want to generate a negative association with stepping up. How do you use it and when?

FWIW Scooter was way, way better this evening. He did chomp on me once, when I announced it was time to go home, but in the actual transfer he was very, very good. He just really wants to hang out with me right now. Earlier I'd put him on his playtop, where he normally is happy to stay for hours, and he jumped across a 12" gap to land on my shirt. I have to get him to stop trying out the beak thing, though!

OK, thanks. That's what I'd guessed it was, but I'd never heard it called that - and have never seen it used as a corrective/punitive measure either.

ScooterNScotty wrote:

Roz, I'm curious about your experience using that technique as a correction. I've done it as a way to get him occupied with something constructive and to give him something to do which I know I can reward. But I've been reluctant to see it as a "correction" or "negative consequence" because I wouldn't want to generate a negative association with stepping up. How do you use it and when?

I think it's more of a "correction" or "negative consequence" in our human minds. I'm not too sure if they perceive it as a negative. I don't give verbal commands such as "step up" or "step down" as I believe the act of presenting your hand is in itself the cue. Pretty much any time there's "excessive" biting (primarily just beaking too hard), I give a verbal "AH! AH!" warning, second "HISS!" warning, third I ladder - just maybe three times. It doesn't take much. There's also no emotional anger involved. In animal training controlling human anger is very important as they can feel the emotion and that emotion is negative. I can't explain that very well.

With the CAG that bit me (bloody) I immediately with no verbal warning started laddering him (while I was spurting blood).

My perception is that the laddering actually confuses/redirects them more than being a "correction", even though it is "negative" and a "correction" as far as humans are involved and as defined by animal behaviorists.

Don't really know how to better explain it. I don't have any refusals to step up. Again, I don't always insist they step up. Most of the time I present my hand and they have a choice. I explain it more fully here (I'm not sure if I'm even much clearer):
http://www.parrotparadiseforum.com/t115-step-up-brat

patdbunny wrote:

I'm thinking Merlin's not really afraid of Roger's hands. I'm thinking Merlin was cooped up a few days with him gone and he associates Roger's hands w/ going back in the cage and he doesn't want to. Kinda like a dog that won't come with called at dog park and you have to chase him for 1/2 hour. Dog's associated you calling him w/ fun's over. So you have to call the dog often and reward and NOT go home so most of the time you call him, fun's not over. The 20th time you call him, then it's time to go home and then the dog's not resentful.

Roger - also save one very special most favoritist treat (or toy if he's more receptive to toys) in the whole wide world and put that in the cage when you're ready to put him in the cage. Use an exclusive very utmost special treat every time you put him in the cage. He'll start looking forward to being put away. You can also have family members do this - show him the special treat and then put the special treat in the cage for Merlin to go in by himself. Whistle or kissy noise to catch his attention and they can cue him with a whistle or kissy noise. Then there's no struggle for anyone to get him into the cage without touching him.

Sorry I didn't get back to you all sooner, I was trying some of Roz's ideas with Merlin.

I try to extra grabby with Merlin too, so that he is used to being handled. I also give rasberries and tickle his belly (which he fights back against, like it really is tickling) and kisses. However, I haven't been able to do that lately....Until tonight. I am not claiming total success as yet, but things are headed in the right direction. Thanks Roz and Deb for your help! I tried the bathroom idea you posted earlier on this thread, and it seemed to work great. I also had the same thought as you (prior to reading the post above) that he was associating my hands with being forcibly put back in his cage (had to do that over the weekend), so I tried something. When I got Merlin to step up on my hand, before he could take off for my shoulder, I trapped his feet with my thumb and put my hand on his back. The we went to the cage, but instead I praised him for being so good, and took him back away from the cage and into the bathroom for your idea. After that he seemed better, not perfect, but better, letting me put my hands on his back and pick him up, without flying away. After the bathroom we went back to the cage and moved all around it without going back in. Finally, after doing this a few times it was past his bed time, so I brought him to the cage and in he went, good as gold.

I already do the special treat thing with him. He LOVES black oil sunflower seeds. Our ritual has always been that he gets two in the morning when I uncover him, and two at bed time. Other than that he only gets them when someone else in the family goes up to the cage.

Thanks again for all your help ladies. And once again, Deb, sorry for hijacking the thread

roger in my humble opinion i would wait and decide later about clipping....give him a chance to get back to his normal self...if all else fails and you feel you have to clip him for his safety, you won't feel guilty about it....i believe the bird changes when clipped and not always for the good



dusty

RogerP wrote:

Thanks again for all your help ladies. And once again, Deb, sorry for hijacking the thread

Oh, I don't mind. Sometimes the plane goes someplace more interesting anyway!