Clipping flighted birds.

patdbunny wrote:

I forgot about the two flighted bourkes I sold about ten years ago to some lady. I don't remember how old they were when they died, but definitely under 2 years old. One was killed by the ceiling fan and the other got squished in the door - she didn't realize the bird was on top of the door when she closed it. I was a bit surprised about getting squished by the door. I thought flighted birds were able to evade being squished by doors and being stepped on.

And she volunteered this information to you, the birds' breeder?! I hope she didn't tell you that on the phone call to see if she could come get another pair!!

LyzGrace wrote:

patdbunny wrote:

I forgot about the two flighted bourkes I sold about ten years ago to some lady. I don't remember how old they were when they died, but definitely under 2 years old. One was killed by the ceiling fan and the other got squished in the door - she didn't realize the bird was on top of the door when she closed it. I was a bit surprised about getting squished by the door. I thought flighted birds were able to evade being squished by doors and being stepped on.

And she volunteered this information to you, the birds' breeder?! I hope she didn't tell you that on the phone call to see if she could come get another pair!!

The thing is, she didn't mean for the birds to die. She sincerely thought she was giving them the most joyful life by giving them flight. Think about it - a lot of clipped birds die too in pet households. Not necessarily due to neglect or abuse, but people just don't know better or the birds die of freak accidents. I really don't make negative judgment calls on these things unless it's something like "It pissed me off so I threw it against the wall."

sorry got the reply out of context

On the lightly clipped thing... We tend to keep Scooter in a "show clip" with the outer two flights intact (two helps them support each other) and so far it has worked well for us. Yes, he does wind up on the floor occasionally, but with cats int he household, we are pretty careful about supervising when they are out of cage anyway, and he can't fly any distance to speak of. ANY clip IMO limits range rather than completely eradicating flight. My goal is to be able to keep him from getting out of the room, basically, or from getting up enough speed to risk injury. I want him to be able to fall or jump of his cage top and land in a controlled manner. And I don't want the birds in the kitchen when the stove is on, either, because a startled bird seems to have considerably more flight ability than one imagines.

IMO, based on an admittedly limited amount of observation, flight is a more emotional issue for humans than for birds.

I keep my birds flighted, but I don't see nothing wrong with clipping your bird. It's individual choice, depend of your living situation.
Take my example: I live single, no kids running around, no cats, my boyfriend is probably more careful with pets than me. I have a space over the cages, so I made them play-gym. But I have small birds.
Considering the same situation and big birds(yes, including Amazon), he/she would be clipped for sure- for everybody's safety. Can you imagine big bird flying in the small apartment? First of all, it will be not safe for bird!
In the future, I may clip my birds, I don't know in what situation I'll be. So I'm not saying: no for clipping birds wings.

As for Kay original question,
Put some toys, ropes, whatever over their cages, so they have something to chew. My budgies don't touch nothing from my home things, because they have plenty of their own toys. Chico started doing the same. I bet, if I haven't hung all of those toys, and make bird tree, they would find something else to chew- they're like babies

Scooter is getting his trim updated tomorrow, and I am going to start to work with Scotty on letting me do his (him, we definitely don't want to manhandle). I was sitting here in the office with the two birds on their cage-tops when something set Scooter off and he started flapping. That set Scotty off, who promptly flew out his cage and across the room, which set Scooter off even more and he flew across the hallway, over Nikki and into the bedroom with the other two cats. Scotty crashed into the window blinds (well, tried to land on them and presumably slid down). Because Nikki is the one cat that would conceivably hunt them, and was now standing in the doorway looking fascinated, I closed the door leaving Scotty to his fate, went to find and retrieve Scooter, who was on the bed. Then went back to find Scotty walking across the floor making his "sorry for me" noise (sounds like a girl going "aaawwwwww".)

Everybody is fine, and my hair is only a little greyer....

ScooterNScotty wrote:

On the lightly clipped thing... We tend to keep Scooter in a "show clip" with the outer two flights intact (two helps them support each other) and so far it has worked well for us. Yes, he does wind up on the floor occasionally, but with cats int he household, we are pretty careful about supervising when they are out of cage anyway, and he can't fly any distance to speak of. ANY clip IMO limits range rather than completely eradicating flight. My goal is to be able to keep him from getting out of the room, basically, or from getting up enough speed to risk injury. I want him to be able to fall or jump of his cage top and land in a controlled manner. And I don't want the birds in the kitchen when the stove is on, either, because a startled bird seems to have considerably more flight ability than one imagines.

IMO, based on an admittedly limited amount of observation, flight is a more emotional issue for humans than for birds.

(Emphasis in that quote was added by Vicki.)


Before I comment, let me say that I'm not sure that I interpreted your statement entirely correct. I'm not sure if you were limiting your observation to the emotional aspect of flight - i.e. a birds ability to fly is a bigger deal to peoples' emotions than it is to birds' emotions; or if you were saying that a large part of the flight vs non-flight decision is an emotional issue for people. "Knowing" you the way I think I do, I tend to believe you meant the former, but prior to reading the whole comment a couple of times, my initial response was to tag on a little bit and say...

I agree with you 89% (lol). The only thing I would add to that would be to say that I think there is a health benefit for birds who are flighted. In the same way that people are benefited by performing the activities they are physiologically and biologically designed to do, I believe that birds are benefited in a similar manner. Speaking in generalities, able bodied people are more easily able to exercise and strengthen their skeletal muscles and cardiovascular system. These people are thus healthier than people confined to a wheelchair, or likely even those with chronic pain (for whom movement is often painful and difficult). Again, I speak in generalities, and like you SnS, my conclusions are based mostly on observation as opposed to research. (It's 13 years of observation as an RN, but it's observation nonetheless.) Similarly, I believe that birds are healthier when they fly. They use all of their muscles the way they were designed to be used, and their cardiovascular system receives a similar benefit. I can see that JJ works harder to fly than she does to climb, and when I do "wing-flap" exercises with Bucky, I can tell that he's working because he's breathing harder at the end of the session. I don't know that the health benefits of flight outweigh the safety risks in many homes, but I'm pretty sure the observations I've made are sound and not based on emotions.

I think it's much easier to keep a flighted parrot enriched as opposed to a clipped parrot.

Yes, I meant that people get more wound up about flight emotionally than the birds do. And I think there is often a large dose of anthropomorphism mixed in.

Yes, it is good exercise. It is unclear at this point how much of a benefit that is, especially when weighted against the risk factors in a typical situation. It would be nice to have that data to hand. Yes, they can probably keep themselves entertained a bit better -- IF they have an environment they can safely fly in for a significant amount of time each day. In our house, it definitely means they will have less freedom to be out and about. And I think in most home situations the risk is significant. Very little about a house and a normal human life is conducive to bird safety. I can imagine a perfect situation in which it might be possible to have my birds flighted but I don't live in that world, and I doubt I ever will. Even if I could set aside a large portion of the house as an aviary, I suspect I'd be in it less of the time than I now spend with my birds in their limited range state. Ultimately the decision has to be individual and based on what maximizes the positive for both the birds and the humans. In many situations I think the choice ranges from a flighted bird that can never safely come out its cage to a heavily clipped bird that goes everywhere with its human. Flight per se is not, IMO, the real issue. It symbolizes freedom, but in many situations, I think it either leads to less freedom or a very short lifespan.

I agree

After yesterday, I'm finding it hard to see the health benefits of flight even though I admittedly know there are health benefits. Seeing your fully flighted bird drop dead out of the air with no warning that something is wrong kind of does that, I guess.

Aside from that, Pigpen was a perch potato and didn't play much when she was clipped. I'm not sure if it was because she was clipped or because she was still warming up to having this be home. Now she's all about and flies from toy to toy.

I will probably keep her flighted because that's what works best for her. I may have her checked extra closely for cardiovascular abnormalities now and in the future. I'll also probably run swabs from Avian Biotech every six months now instead of testing just once a year or every other year (recommended by the vet). But now that's just me being kind of traumatized from yesterday.

KayLayUh wrote:

Seeing your fully flighted bird drop dead out of the air with no warning that something is wrong kind of does that, I guess.

I'm going to put my nurse hat on for just a minute and remind everyone that cardiovascular disease and heart attacks do not always give warning. If at any time you or someone you love experiences Chest Pain, Discomfort or Pressure; Pain or discomfort in one or both arms, back, neck, jaw or stomach; shortness of breath (with or without chest discomfort); or other signs that may include breaking out in a cold sweat, nausea or lightheadedness - CALL 911 IMMEDIATELY. Don't be embarrassed or worried about "looking dumb." There is no amount of pride that is worth a life.

(Taking off my cute white hat now.) That said, I'm sure that heart attacks can occur in animals the same way they do in people - sometimes you have warning and sometimes they're very sudden and nothing could have been done to predict or prevent them. And remember, even if he knew that there was a problem and was feeling bad, birds are "programmed" to keep going until they can't, so I'm not surprised he was acting normal right up to the end.

I know you know all of that already, but it's always worth repeating.

Vicki5280 wrote:

And remember, even if he knew that there was a problem and was feeling bad, birds are "programmed" to keep going until they can't, so I'm not surprised he was acting normal right up to the end.

Every other time I'd seen a budgie die before (and if I'm not mistaken, I believe those came from the same PetCo seven years earlier), they had always shown some sign of general illness. Sitting at the bottom of the cage, not eating, not playing very much. Never ever just bam! right out of the air.

I'm really starting to think PetCo may knowingly have suppliers whose flockmembers have some kind of congenital heart defect or cardiovascular disease. There's obviously no way to know for certain, but when I had first gotten budgies seven years ago, three of the four were dead in a month.

KayLayUh wrote:

Every other time I'd seen a budgie die before (and if I'm not mistaken, I believe those came from the same PetCo seven years earlier), they had always shown some sign of general illness. Sitting at the bottom of the cage, not eating, not playing very much. Never ever just bam! right out of the air.

I'm really starting to think PetCo may knowingly have suppliers whose flockmembers have some kind of congenital heart defect or cardiovascular disease. There's obviously no way to know for certain, but when I had first gotten budgies seven years ago, three of the four were dead in a month.

I don't think PetCo knows or cares. Provided the breeder can supply them with several hundred keets a month, they're happy. With how many PetCo wants their supplier to provide per month, and how little PetCo pays per bird, I'd think a breeder's not all that concerned about health or inbreeding. It's breeding for numbers. When you breed for numbers like that you can't be concerned with providing optimum health and nutrition. There's the acceptable and expected X-number of sick and dead. It becomes like the mass breeding of feeder mice. I don't think they're expected to live very long. Just long enough so you can't return it or claim any health guarantee period.

I looked into selling to PetCo once. I was pretty mortified how many a month I had to be able to supply. Not interested.

patdbunny wrote:

I don't think PetCo knows or cares. Provided the breeder can supply them with several hundred keets a month, they're happy. With how many PetCo wants their supplier to provide per month, and how little PetCo pays per bird, I'd think a breeder's not all that concerned about health or inbreeding. It's breeding for numbers. When you breed for numbers like that you can't be concerned with providing optimum health and nutrition. There's the acceptable and expected X-number of sick and dead. It becomes like the mass breeding of feeder mice. I don't think they're expected to live very long. Just long enough so you can't return it or claim any health guarantee period.

I looked into selling to PetCo once. I was pretty mortified how many a month I had to be able to supply. Not interested.

Normally I wouldn't have gotten anything from them, but Pigpen and No Name caught eye. Both weren't very ordinary. I guess I kind of bought them without really thinking about it.

Just out of curiousity, how many would you have to supply a month?

ScooterNScotty wrote:

Yes, I meant that people get more wound up about flight emotionally than the birds do. And I think there is often a large dose of anthropomorphism mixed in.

Yes, it is good exercise. It is unclear at this point how much of a benefit that is, especially when weighted against the risk factors in a typical situation. It would be nice to have that data to hand. Yes, they can probably keep themselves entertained a bit better -- IF they have an environment they can safely fly in for a significant amount of time each day. In our house, it definitely means they will have less freedom to be out and about. And I think in most home situations the risk is significant. Very little about a house and a normal human life is conducive to bird safety. I can imagine a perfect situation in which it might be possible to have my birds flighted but I don't live in that world, and I doubt I ever will. Even if I could set aside a large portion of the house as an aviary, I suspect I'd be in it less of the time than I now spend with my birds in their limited range state. Ultimately the decision has to be individual and based on what maximizes the positive for both the birds and the humans. In many situations I think the choice ranges from a flighted bird that can never safely come out its cage to a heavily clipped bird that goes everywhere with its human. Flight per se is not, IMO, the real issue. It symbolizes freedom, but in many situations, I think it either leads to less freedom or a very short lifespan.

henpecked wrote:

I agree

I also agree.

KayLayUh wrote:

Vicki5280 wrote:

And remember, even if he knew that there was a problem and was feeling bad, birds are "programmed" to keep going until they can't, so I'm not surprised he was acting normal right up to the end.

Every other time I'd seen a budgie die before (and if I'm not mistaken, I believe those came from the same PetCo seven years earlier), they had always shown some sign of general illness. Sitting at the bottom of the cage, not eating, not playing very much. Never ever just bam! right out of the air.

I'm really starting to think PetCo may knowingly have suppliers whose flockmembers have some kind of congenital heart defect or cardiovascular disease. There's obviously no way to know for certain, but when I had first gotten budgies seven years ago, three of the four were dead in a month.

I've always had bad experiences with PetCo animals. Their fish have ick or are floating half- or full dead, their birds are either sick or unfriendly, and that makes me doubt the health and tameness of their other animals. PetCo, where pets go. To die.

I don't think they necessarily knowingly use unhealthy suppliers, but I think they don't care much. If the bird/fish/snake/hamster is cheap and lives long enough to be sold, it wouldn't matter much to them. "Them" being those in charge of the chain, not individual employees. Some of the employees are actually concerned with the animals. They just can't really do anything about it if a higher-up isn't feeling sympathetic.
(Yeah, what Roz said. I'd already typed this and didn't want to delete it...)

KayLayUh wrote:

Normally I wouldn't have gotten anything from them, but Pigpen and No Name caught eye. Both weren't very ordinary. I guess I kind of bought them without really thinking about it.

Just out of curiousity, how many would you have to supply a month?

I looked into it years ago. I don't remember the exact number, but it was several hundred per month. Plus they paid something ridiculous like $1.50 per bird. Independent pet stores, including bird stores, in my area pay right about $3 per budgie. That's still not a lot, but it's enough to at least pay for ok feeding, just not much profit there.

Poor poor budgies..

patdbunny wrote:

Just out of curiousity, how many would you have to supply a month?

I looked into it years ago. I don't remember the exact number, but it was several hundred per month. Plus they paid something ridiculous like $1.50 per bird. Independent pet stores, including bird stores, in my area pay right about $3 per budgie. That's still not a lot, but it's enough to at least pay for ok feeding, just not much profit there. [/quote]