Okay, Merlin's driving me nuts......

I'm not sure what I've done wrong or if it is a hormone thing, terrible two's come early (he is only 15 months old), but something has changed in the last week. He no longer comes when I call, in fact he makes a point of flying away from me, and I end up playing tag with the household furniture, trying to get him back to me.

Since school let out at the end of July, I have left him covered when I leave for work in the morning, because he screeches when I leave and wakes up the rest of the house. So I don't see him until I get home from work. It has been like this for the whole of July without any kind of problems. I started two weeks of vacation this week and have been home in the mornings, so he is getting more time out of the cage than usual. The last for days he has gone mental. He purposely picks fights with the cats, who know to leave him alone, he flies away from me all the time. When my son is in the room I may as well not exist, because he only wants to be with him, then he bites my son's hands if he tries to get him off. On his flights the cats then chase him, and he has crashed into a couple of walls trying to avoid them. I am afraid he is going to hurt himself soon.

I thought I would use this time to try to desensitize him to the Aviator harness, but he flies away whenever I approach with it (and he is used to it being around, I have had it near or on his cage since it arrived, and he will play with the elastic, just isn't fond of the harness end). I remember in another post, several of you advised that your birds calmed down and weren't so flighty (no pun intended). If I can't get him to spend any time with me I will never make any progress on going outside.

I am agonizing over the issue of clipping or not. I don't want to, but he is becoming unruly, and possibly a danger to himself or others. I feel like such a failure that he does not want to listen to me. He is now refusing to come out of his cage to me when I open the door (something he wasn't doing before) and runs away from me when I reach into his cage (something he has been doing for the last couple of months, and I have allowed him to come out when he is ready). All likely because I had to catch him this morning so I could go run some errands and he decided he didn't want to go back. As a result, he has spent very little time out today, and is currently up in the living room sreaming while we are down in the family room watching a movie.

Sorry for the long post, but I am not sure where to go from here. If I do decide to clip, should I do this myself (he already seems pissed at me, or get someone else to do it. I asked at one place but their "clip" seems too severe to me, taking the primaries right up to the secondary coverts. That hardly leaves him a wing left. Those of you who do clip, how far do you take it? All opinions are welcome (it's not unlikely that I have already said the same things to myself, I feel like crap already)

Help please!

Cheney Bird was like this for a good two weeks when he was hormonal and it was driving me bonkers. I'm not sure how old Cheney Bird is since the rescue didn't know, so I'm not sure if age had anything to do with it.

I basically ignored the screaming, or if it got too bad, put him in the shower. To get him to step up, I asked nicely a couple of times but quickly moved away if he showed biting posture. If he didn't want to come out, he could stay in the cage. If I needed to get him out for some reason, I plucked him up off the perch. That was very rare and only under the circumstances of him needing to go from playgym to cage.

If you think it's hormones, you could try lengthening his dark hours. Cheney Bird currently gets covered between 8 and 9:30 and wakes up between 6 and 7:30. I try to get him to about 11.5 hours of sleep time a day. If he's being a brat outside of the cage, he gets put back in and I don't pay attention to him.

Formal recall training?
http://www.libertywings.com/2008/training/to-the-perch-back-again/
http://www.libertywings.com/2008/behavior/a-little-motivation-is-a-good-thing/
http://www.libertywings.com/2008/behavior/variable-or-differential-reinforcement/
http://www.libertywings.com/2008/training/target-training/
http://www.libertywings.com/2009/behavior/empowerment-vs-coercion/
http://www.libertywings.com/2010/training/clicker-training/
http://www.libertywings.com/2010/training/click-treat/

I clip the first 6 primaries down to the coverts. No, there's not much flight left when I'm done. Like I've said before, Ducky goes out with us about twice a week so that's our trade off for the inability to fly. He's also left out of his cage almost 24/7 so long as he stays off the floor.

If you do decide to clip him, have someone else do it. If you're inept about it, you might piss him off and it will take awhile for him to "like" you again. If you can do it in a confident, matter of fact manner, then it would probably be ok if you do it. Just depends on how confident you feel about it. I didn't clip my own birds for the first 10 years of bird ownership, so don't feel bad if you need someone else to do it. The place you're considering, they should be receptive to how you want Merlin clipped and respect your wishes.

I don't get the stigma against clipping. I do it for the safety and health of my birds, it is the responsible choice for my house.



I don't see how clipping would make it worse. I agree let someone else do it.



I have mine clipped to the point they can safely flutter to the ground.

something has certainly set him off...i would wait a bit before clipping to see if he comes around...it may not last...try spoiling him with treats...if all else fails then clip him but as a last resort...as you can see i am an advocate for flighted birds...but it is the safety of your bird that should be considered...i would clip if it came to that...good luck!


dusty

dusty wrote:

but it is the safety of your bird that should be considered

Not just to Dusty, but to everyone, birds flighted or not-
What about the safety of other household members, human or otherwise?
What would you do if your SO/spouse put their foot down and said clip the bird or get rid of it as they're tired of being chased down and bitten? Or tired of the bird chasing down the minor child and biting the child?

Roz, that is what I am saying! My birds are a member of the flock, they aren't "above" us or more important. They are equal. We do what it takes to keep them safe, on the same page, they have to return the behavior. Does that make sense?

Julsiebean wrote:

Roz, that is what I am saying! My birds are a member of the flock, they aren't "above" us or more important. They are equal. We do what it takes to keep them safe, on the same page, they have to return the behavior. Does that make sense?

I completely understand Julsie. I've gotten more than one conure that the spouse demanded be gone because it was going around biting household members. I also know of one that a spouse basically beat to incapacity and the bird had to be euthanized. Cruel to the animal? Yes, but I do understand the person being sick and tired of being chased down and bitten bloody in their own home.

patdbunny wrote:

Not just to Dusty, but to everyone, birds flighted or not-
What about the safety of other household members, human or otherwise?
What would you do if your SO/spouse put their foot down and said clip the bird or get rid of it as they're tired of being chased down and bitten? Or tired of the bird chasing down the minor child and biting the child?

I personally don't clip because I live by myself. Without anyone else to consider, I've been able to make modifications to my lifestyle to ensure that both the birds and I are safe. I don't have to consider toilets being left open, cooking hazards, open windows or doors.

All of my birds will remain flighted because that's my personal preference. It's what works for me and my birds. I like the health aspects of being able to fly and the enrichment it provides to their life. Clipping them now would seem like I was hobbling them. I would be uncomfortable with it.

None of the other questions really apply to me. Even when living with my boyfriend, the birds will be confined to a single room, much as they are now. Keeping them away from a predatory cat is much more important to me than access to the full house. Were Bobby to want to interact with my birds, he understands the need to keep doors and windows shut because he has cats and he follows similar procedures. Kids would have the fear of god placed in them so they know not to go in that room unless mom is with you. I'd padlock and deadbolt the door if necessary.

If the birds were for some reason to decide they liked to fly and attack people, we'd work on behavior modification first. But I have a very hard time picturing this because Pigpen, even when flying, goes out of her way to avoid any contact with people. Piper seems to only want contact on his terms and, while he toddles over to me now, I'm not sure he'd do the same when he's flighted.

The only one I'd probably need to worry about is Cheney Bird, as I'm currently his only choice for a preferred person and he seems me as his mate. He also doesn't seem to see flying as a mode of transportation and seems genuinely freaked out when he does manage to fly a few feet. Were he to decide to fly an attack anyone, we'd be working on building a level of trust between him and the other person.

im also still tempted to clip if problems continue, not sure if you saw my post a few weeks back regarding lorenzos manic stage too. he won't fly away from me but more non stop at me but everyone had really good advice so take a look, maybe something there helps.

Many people believe clipping is cruel because it removes the animals basic instinct to fly (and for good reason) and they see it as additional imprisonment in addition to cages. For me, we have no need to clip our guys because they don't chase you around and bite you, but we do have three cats who get along with them but for the safety of the birds, I want them to have the ability to get away if they need to. The macaws we don't really worry about. Merlyn was alway too fat and heavy to fly and now that he can, he never feels the need. Sebastian is just petrified of the outdoors and he would rather cling to my shoulder until I'm bloody before he took off. Clipping is by preference and safety, nothing more.

patdbunny wrote:

dusty wrote:

but it is the safety of your bird that should be considered

Not just to Dusty, but to everyone, birds flighted or not-
What about the safety of other household members, human or otherwise?
What would you do if your SO/spouse put their foot down and said clip the bird or get rid of it as they're tired of being chased down and bitten? Or tired of the bird chasing down the minor child and biting the child?

i agree...what i am saying is take a wait and see approach before clipping...family members safety is paramount in my view

dusty

I am guessing it is a "terrible twos" kind of scenario. I would have no problem clipping in that case, but I'm not one who feels that the bird suffers from clipping. I've let Scooter grow out most of his primaries to the point where he could fly pretty well and all that happened was he routinely terrified me by taking flight whenever startled, and that he would fly to me when he got bored on his playtop. The latter was fine and somewhat flattering, but not worth it for the time he almost crashed into the cactus, etc. He did not seem happier that way or unhappy when we clipped him again. However, preferences vary and if not clipping is a strong preference, formal training is a first route to take. And since this is a safety issue, reliable recall, I might even go so far as to consider the evil food management approach if it was necessary to get the training solid. But personally I'd probably clip and train.

There was a thread a while back about resentment following clipping and Roz and I both concluded that it's more to do with being manhandled than the event of having been clipped. We both seem to take the approach of making up and reestablishing normal interaction patterns immediately upon finishing and have not experienced any lasting resentment. But it is easier to do with two people and if having it done professionally is an option it does eliminate the issue.

As for the severity of a clip -- I understand that clipping is usually done to the line of the coverts, what varies is how many and which feathers are clipped. We give in to vanity with Scooter and leave the two outer primaries intact -- two so they can support each other and reduce probability of breakage, which we've not yet had happen -- and then trim the next several up to the line of the coverts. This does not completely eliminate flight for him, but he can't get very far or really get any lift -- he can get to the ground gracefully and with a lot of effort can get to my desk from his cage top, about a 7' distance. I would not take him out without a harness or carrier with this trim.

What about clipping only of the first 3-4 primaries on each wing? He would still fly but without too much height and also a bit slower. I've said this a thousand times before, but I hate full clips. Our flighted birds are not chickens, flight is their primary source of movement and their bodies are designed to support that. But if he's getting unruly and doesn't improve, a light clip can't hurt?

I don't think 3-4 primaries would limit a conure very much. The advantage to the "show clip" is that it is effective and doesn't look as unsightly.

I don't want to get into the flight argument, but most birds actually spend relatively little of their time flying. Conures aren't, but many parrots are primarily ground foragers anyway. It IS good exercise, but to me it seems more analogous to a person being limited from running but able to walk in an unrestricted way rather than being rendered wheelchair bound. I don't sense they feel that limited, really. Scotty has had a full set of flights, almost, for months now and he's yet to fly anywhere. I think the house feels too small for him to be comfortable flying. I know he was co-parented and fledged, so it isn't as if he doesn't know how.

I have no wish to start the flight argument either. Part of me was frustrated and needing to vent, and part of wanted to consult my "panel of experts" (that being you friends here ), to get some feedback on what I should do, and to ease my conscience a bit for what I likely know needs to be done and at the same time don't really want to do. Thank you all for your input and insight.



He seems a bit better tonight after spending most of the day in his cage, he is coming out of the cage and though he flies away to play, he is coming back better when I call him, and is staying with me little better. Not as good as usual, but better than yesterday. I talked to another place today who have advised that they will do his wings and nails for $10.00, and will clip whatever way I want done, though they normally trim the first 6 Primaries back to the Coverts. I am kind of looking for the "show clip" SnS spoke of, but trimming back to the coverts seems harsh to me, feels like half the wing is missing.



Thank you all again for the feedback.

Roger, you need to do what's right for you regardless of what the rest of us think. Each family has its own dynamics. What works for me might not work for you. You might need to try different things until you hit upon what finally works for you. So no pressure, okay? Our ultimate wish is to see you succeed w/ Merlin.

BTW, right now I'm raising Minion flighted. She's learning that she needs to stay in the living room where all the approved landing spots are. She's not allowed to randomly go into other rooms and land where ever she wants. She'll fly into the kitchen and land on me. I give her a kiss and return her to an authorized spot in the living room. If she keeps going/landing where she's not supposed to, I put her in a cage. She seems to be "getting it". Today I was able to give her a kiss in the kitchen and then toss her towards the living room and she flew back in there onto an authorized perch. I've been shooing her if she makes to land somewhere she's not allowed to land. She's also flying through the house, not landing and then going back in the living room to land on an approved spot.

I know that doesn't really answer any of your questions, but I'm relaying a boundary I'm giving to Minion that might help with any future problems with her.

Thanks Roz, I guess I should have written "get some feedback on what I could do" instead of should do. I know it is ultimately up to me to decide, but it is nice to have friends to bounce ideas off of to help me to make up my mind. I never could have posted this problem "somewhere else" without fear of reprisals and recriminations. I am happy to be able to discuss this from all perspectives in a non-judgmental way to help me arrive at my decision....which I haven't made yet .... Thanks again everyone.

Okay I guess I asked for this but it is still hard to take. I decided enough was enough with Merlin and a clip was in order before the cats decided to gang up on him for picking fights, and to stop me having to chase him around to get him back in his cage.



The stupid part is I decided that if it was to be done I would do it myself, as there wasn't time to get to the pet store (and truth to tell I was unsure about using them). So Merlin got a modified show clip, not as short as the coverts, and left the last two primaries (I couldn't bring myself to cut off all that beautiful blue!). He is still able to fly and can get some lift, but he has to work a lot harder.



The only issue now if the fallout. At first he seemed fine, he was sitting on my shoulder, let me deal with some pinfeathers on the back of his head, and was eating treats. Then we needed to prepare supper so I put him in his cage. Now he refuses to come out, is very quiet, and won't take even his favourite treat through the cage. I know he's just pouting, but it's hard to take. The last time he was trimmed this went on for almost a week. Fun times! Not!

RogerP wrote:

Okay I guess I asked for this but it is still hard to take. I decided enough was enough with Merlin and a clip was in order before the cats decided to gang up on him for picking fights, and to stop me having to chase him around to get him back in his cage.

The stupid part is I decided that if it was to be done I would do it myself, as there wasn't time to get to the pet store (and truth to tell I was unsure about using them). So Merlin got a modified show clip, not as short as the coverts, and left the last two primaries (I couldn't bring myself to cut off all that beautiful blue!). He is still able to fly and can get some lift, but he has to work a lot harder.

The only issue now if the fallout. At first he seemed fine, he was sitting on my shoulder, let me deal with some pinfeathers on the back of his head, and was eating treats. Then we needed to prepare supper so I put him in his cage. Now he refuses to come out, is very quiet, and won't take even his favourite treat through the cage. I know he's just pouting, but it's hard to take. The last time he was trimmed this went on for almost a week. Fun times! Not!

Quit trying to suck up to him. If he's going to be a big baby, let him. Ignore the pouting and treat him like nothing's happened. No cajoling. They really do take a cue off of us.

Oh believe me I am not giving in, I will try occasionally to see if he has changed his mind, but if not then he can stay where he is and pout away!! I'm not feeling guilty for his attitude, but I do feel guilty about clipping him. I will get over it though.

tough choice to make but remember you are doing it out of love for your bird and your family...don't feel guilty...


dusty

Good for you Roger! Reward yourself with a shrubbery!

I'm for whatever it takes to not have to resort to getting rid of the animal.

Quote :

Good for you Roger! Reward yourself with a shrubbery!

Not too big. Not too dear.

I think it might not be a bad move to set up with treats to reward him for coming out to you, but don't project your guilty feelings when you are interacting, try to project a sense of loving concern... sounds silly, but we do telegraph our feelings with our body language and our voices and sometimes acting "as if" we are feeling differently works! At least, it does with horses. You know "make believe you're brave/and the trick will take you far/You may be as brave/As you make believe you are". Like that.

patdbunny wrote:

I'm for whatever it takes to not have to resort to getting rid of the animal.

Ditto!
I never say: no to clipping. Now my birds are flighted, but who knows how situation will change in the future. Don't feel guilty about that. He will get over it, tell him that Lucky forgave me trimming his nails already