I'm home and he's "speaking" to me!

I'm home from a short trip and Scooter actually isn't mad at me! Scotty was sooo happy to hear us come in the front door, too.

What's different this time? Is it because both of you were gone?

that's great! how long are you usually gone when he's mad at you after? I haven't experienced anything like that with rainbow before, hoping it won't start up

No, it's the length of the trip I think, we were only gone 1 full day, 2 nights. When I was gone for several days and Bill is home, he's been fine, too. And I've taken past overnight trips where he's been OK. More than 2 days-ish and he goes into his state. Maybe lots of short trips would be a way to work with it, but that's hard to arrange. The sitter does come in for the shorter trips since we have a cat that needs meds twice a day, so that's not the answer.

Moa, I think this is fairly unique, I wouldn't worry! I think it's a Scooter thing, not a GCC thing.

I really wish I could believe in animal communicators. The desire to just ask him what the heck he's thinking is very strong!

Woohoo!

That's great Deb, I'm glad Scooter wasn't mad at you

I don't mean to hijack the thread, but I am having some difficulties with Merlin that may be due to a recent trip out of town myself, and could use some advice.

I had a 3 day trip away this past week where everyone else was home but did not take him out of the cage, as they were not confident in controlling where he would go and getting him back into his cage. All was fine when I got home last Friday, he was like I had not left. The weekend, though he is making me pay for it. He will not come out of the cage to me, when he does come out, he acts like he is afraid of my hands (flies away whenever I reach towards him), and generally seems to want very little to do with me.

It's the flying away from me that is the most disconcerting, he will land on my shoulder but if I reach up to take him onto my hand he flies away. I am worried that he is going to fly into something and get hurt. The last time he did this was when his wings were coming in the last time. I got scared and clipped him, which then had him mad at me for 3 days. I am debating with myself over whether to clip him again (I don't want to, but he won't interact with me right now and I am worried about him getting hurt).

This is not something I would ever bring up on that other forum, but I am looking for advice from my friends here (which means all of you): Should I clip him again or not? Am I being selfish for considering it? If I decide to go ahead with it, am I better to do it myself or take her in and have someone else be blamed?

Thanks for your input!

First of all, S&S, yay for you! I have no idea what's making the difference, but I'm glad it's happening!

Second, Roger, I say give him more time and work with him using whatever positive reinforcement you've used in the past that worked. It sounds to me like he's got a burr in his tail-feathers and may just need some time to work it out. But if you really think that his safety is being jeopardized, then by all means, clip him. I'm inclined to think that he'll get over it if you just give him a little time, and some "sweet" encouragement to hurry the process.

But that's just my uneducated 2cents worth. Good luck!

ScooterNScotty wrote:

I'm home from a short trip and Scooter actually isn't mad at me! Scotty was sooo happy to hear us come in the front door, too.

I'm so glad for you, that you didn't have go through the "pain" of mad parrot. Now you can't leave your home for more than 2 days... When I read this, it's quiet like with a kids!

RogerP wrote:

(...)

It's the flying away from me that is the most disconcerting, he will land on my shoulder but if I reach up to take him onto my hand he flies away. I am worried that he is going to fly into something and get hurt. The last time he did this was when his wings were coming in the last time. I got scared and clipped him, which then had him mad at me for 3 days. I am debating with myself over whether to clip him again (I don't want to, but he won't interact with me right now and I am worried about him getting hurt).

This is not something I would ever bring up on that other forum, but I am looking for advice from my friends here (which means all of you): Should I clip him again or not? Am I being selfish for considering it? If I decide to go ahead with it, am I better to do it myself or take her in and have someone else be blamed?

Thanks for your input!

Roger, you know that I keep my birds flighted, but seriously in your situation I would consider clipping Merlin and yes, first time doing it by somebody else, not you. And not, you're not being selfish for doing it. You're being only realistic! I live by myself, no kids, no family, no traveling. Your situation is different. I think if I be in your shoes, I would let cliped Merlin for his own good.

As Roz give advice to someone else, immediately after that you should give him extra attention, like pet him, etc, to make sure he won't feel bad and won't blame you for that.
Whatever you'll decide, good luck to you both!

Thanks Vicki and Margaret,

I think I will wait a few more days before deciding this. However, I just spent the last 20 minutes chasing him through the house trying to get him back in his cage for the night. He is getting bolder as the last of his flight feathers come in. He now flies from the basement all the way up the stairs into the kitchen, by himself. While I am proud of his accomplishment, with cats in the house it means that he can get out of my sight and potentially into trouble before I can get there. This is what scares me the most!

Roger - Instead of clipping him, take him cage and all into a smaller room like a half bath (close the toilet seat). Bring a book and his favorite treats. Plan to spend time in there with him. Let him out of the cage, sit on the floor, read your book, let him do whatever it is he does. When he comes close, slowly reach your hand towards him (treat or no treat, mix it up), if he starts to back away at all you immediately stop and go back to reading your book until he comes close again. Repeat. He'll eventually let you get close enough to pick him up. Lotsa treats and scritches. Put him back down, go back to reading your book. Repeat. I say use a bathroom because bathrooms are generally the most boring room in the house.

You chasing him around to get him back in the cage was a negative event that we're trying to undo here.

I guess this plane is going to Cuba!

I really like Roz's suggestion.

When Scooter gets "mad" at me, it takes 3-4 days to normalize and then everything is back to normal. But in his case, he's really quite aggressive when he's "mad". So I would give it at least a week before making any drastic changes. I think if having a flighted bird has been working for you up until now, the question is: Has something changed that causes me to change my mind about that? Have I learned that it really isn't safe? Have I learned that it restricts his freedom more than it enhances it? I wouldn't make the decision based on his behavior, but on the plusses and minuses of the flighted state. I tend to think it is very hard to maintain safety with a flighted bird, but I think making the decision on when in the midst of a difficulty is risking making it for the wrong reasons -- although if safety is immediately compromised it may be necessary.

You might want to consider target-training him if you haven't. I keep meaning to do that with Scooter because I can see how it would be a strong aid in dealing with his "mad" moments.

What was the last interaction with him before you left like? What was the first interaction when you got home like? Is it possible he's either connecting your last actions with your disappearance or that something went slightly wrong when you first took him out when you got home? I've created problems with Scooter on a couple of occasions by moving too fast and not providing a secure entrance or exit from the cage. Since he's not flighted, I get nipped at rather than flown away from, but on the occasions it's happened I've been able to connect it to something I did. OTOH his fury and aggression when I return from extended absence, I've been utterly unable to explain except as emotion.

I'm thinking Merlin's not really afraid of Roger's hands. I'm thinking Merlin was cooped up a few days with him gone and he associates Roger's hands w/ going back in the cage and he doesn't want to. Kinda like a dog that won't come with called at dog park and you have to chase him for 1/2 hour. Dog's associated you calling him w/ fun's over. So you have to call the dog often and reward and NOT go home so most of the time you call him, fun's not over. The 20th time you call him, then it's time to go home and then the dog's not resentful.

Roger - also save one very special most favoritist treat (or toy if he's more receptive to toys) in the whole wide world and put that in the cage when you're ready to put him in the cage. Use an exclusive very utmost special treat every time you put him in the cage. He'll start looking forward to being put away. You can also have family members do this - show him the special treat and then put the special treat in the cage for Merlin to go in by himself. Whistle or kissy noise to catch his attention and they can cue him with a whistle or kissy noise. Then there's no struggle for anyone to get him into the cage without touching him.

patdbunny wrote:

I'm thinking Merlin's not really afraid of Roger's hands. I'm thinking Merlin was cooped up a few days with him gone and he associates Roger's hands w/ going back in the cage and he doesn't want to.

I had a similar thought. And while Scooter doesn't seem mad at me this time, he reverted to biting as a protest at going back in his cage when I left for work this morning. I've "fixed" that behavior a couple of times now, but my index fingers are looking rather gnawed. I wonder if I need to change my approach to make the fix "stick" better.

I dunno. My pets don't bite hard I think because I'm very grabby with them - not always to make them "do" something. I'll swoop down and grab them just to raspberry their bellies or play bite their toes. They "scream" and play bite (like when you wrestle with a dog) all the time. When it's too hard play stops and they're told "no", and then scritched up when the beak pressure is acceptable. Maybe that has something to do with why mine don't generally bite very hard?

When we first got Scooter, he immediately started to bite when he didn't want to go back into the cage. We figured he'd been cooped up for almost a year, it was only natural he would be afraid he'd never get to come out again. But it is hard not to reinforce it because the natural response is to recoil and bring the offended member toward the center of the body, thus also pulling the bird back out of the cage. We just worked on making going back be more desirable by making a big positive fuss when he did, and then taking him out again quite soon. It went away for quite a long time. Then it made a reappearance under circumstances when it seemed more like a whim, and I taught him to rub his head on my hand as an indicator of "I don't want to go in yet" and that typically has worked pretty well. He does, and I bring him out again and give a little scritch, tell him it's time to go home and try again. He usually complies after a couple of iterations. This morning he just reverted and was biting fairly hard, almost like a temper tantrum or an act of desperation. If it persists, I guess I'll formally retrain the "step down" or "perch" command. But it may have been a one-off. I also had a crisis at work to deal with an may have been a little brusque. I was certainly not as patient mentally with the scenario as I might otherwise have been.

Scooter doesn't really mind being man-handled all that much, although I try to get him to do things voluntarily rather than force the issue. I could have just grabbed him and put him back...

ScooterNScotty wrote:

I also had a crisis at work to deal with an may have been a little brusque. I was certainly not as patient mentally with the scenario as I might otherwise have been.

They definitely do react to our emotion energy.

ScooterNScotty wrote:

When we first got Scooter, he immediately started to bite when he didn't want to go back into the cage. We figured he'd been cooped up for almost a year, it was only natural he would be afraid he'd never get to come out again. But it is hard not to reinforce it because the natural response is to recoil and bring the offended member toward the center of the body, thus also pulling the bird back out of the cage.(...)

Now it make sense to me. Mango(the first and rescued budgie) was kept there in a small cage, never let out. I had a long time, maybe over 2 years problem with him coming back to cage at night. He always tried to stay at the top of the cage or somewhere near, even if rest of budgies was already inside, light and music/TV was off. It was his fear, that he'll be closed again for a long time in the cage!
With time he changed that behavior, but still after more than 3 years with me and his budgies friends, he is the last one to go to cage at night and the first one to fly out in the morning.

patdbunny wrote:

I dunno. My pets don't bite hard I think because I'm very grabby with them - not always to make them "do" something. I'll swoop down and grab them just to raspberry their bellies or play bite their toes. They "scream" and play bite (like when you wrestle with a dog) all the time. When it's too hard play stops and they're told "no", and then scritched up when the beak pressure is acceptable. Maybe that has something to do with why mine don't generally bite very hard?

I'm the same way - pretty grabby. I really tried hard to follow the "move slow around your birds" rule, but I really haven't changed the way I move at all. I've had very few hard bites from any of my birds, the hardest bites I've had have been from JJ at night when she can't see me. Part of our bedtime routine is that she snuggles next to me in bed while I read for a while. She's usually under the covers where it's warm, but it's also dark. When I reach down to pick her up and move her to her cage, she's startled and I've been bit hard a few times. We've figured out a sound that we make to each other - she knows it's me if I make the sound before I grab at her, and if she makes the sound I know she's looking for me. It's just a quiet little cluck-cluck sound, but it communicates what it needs to communicate - and I don't get bit.

ScooterNScotty wrote:

... I taught him to rub his head on my hand as an indicator of "I don't want to go in yet" and that typically has worked pretty well.

OK. I really want to know... How do you teach this? I've read about things like this, but can't figure out how to condition this behavior.

patdbunny wrote:

ScooterNScotty wrote:

I also had a crisis at work to deal with an may have been a little brusque. I was certainly not as patient mentally with the scenario as I might otherwise have been.

They definitely do react to our emotion energy.

Yes, they certainly do. JJ would NOT leave me the two days that my head was hurting the worst, and whenever anyone would try to take her away (down to the cage where she usually spends the day), she would bite them. My husband managed to lure her down there with a piece of fresh mango, but as soon as she realized she wasn't by me anymore, she flew off and perched on the doorknob to my bedroom until it was opened again. I was really surprised, it almost seemed like she was worried about me. Sweet baby bird!

VickiNumbers wrote:

ScooterNScotty wrote:

... I taught him to rub his head on my hand as an indicator of "I don't want to go in yet" and that typically has worked pretty well.

OK. I really want to know... How do you teach this? I've read about things like this, but can't figure out how to condition this behavior.

He had already started to do that behavior spontaneously when he was out with me, and I wasn't petting him enough. What I did was consciously encourage that behavior in that setting by scritching and praising and generally paying attention when he did.

I then encouraged him to use it when I wasn't holding him, but when he was out loose on my desktop. I'd just wait until he did it and try to be quick to reward it, and I simultaneously attempted to avoid reacting to other solicitations for attention.

It was then natural to bridge it over to the "being put away scenario", because the resistance was coming when I wanted to end an interaction session and get on with my morning chores. The nipping he was doing was minor, so I was able to ignore it and wait for him to try the head rub. Once he did it the first time and was rewarded by being brought back out, it was easy to solidify.

Of course now it can be almost as annoying as being bitten! But I don't reckon I can change what he wants as easily as I can modify how he expresses it. I do also try to give verbal warning that a trip back to the cage is imminent. I say, "Almost time to go home!", "Time to go home now!" and so forth. the combination of things has worked pretty well for the most part, but I do find I am constantly reinforcing what I want him to do, and this morning's regression was a bit frustrating.

Margaret wrote:

ScooterNScotty wrote:

When we first got Scooter, he immediately started to bite when he didn't want to go back into the cage. We figured he'd been cooped up for almost a year, it was only natural he would be afraid he'd never get to come out again. But it is hard not to reinforce it because the natural response is to recoil and bring the offended member toward the center of the body, thus also pulling the bird back out of the cage.(...)

Now it make sense to me. Mango(the first and rescued budgie) was kept there in a small cage, never let out. I had a long time, maybe over 2 years problem with him coming back to cage at night. He always tried to stay at the top of the cage or somewhere near, even if rest of budgies was already inside, light and music/TV was off. It was his fear, that he'll be closed again for a long time in the cage!
With time he changed that behavior, but still after more than 3 years with me and his budgies friends, he is the last one to go to cage at night and the first one to fly out in the morning.

We have freak birds. They get tired of us and go back to their cage by themselves. Just this Saturday I had Ducky, Sam & Eric in my room on various play pens. At about 2 p.m. all three jumped off, walked around me, down the hall to Evil Chicken's room and climbed into their cage. I do think it has something to do with the way they were raised - I raised all of them from chicks and they've never known being locked up for weeks on end.

I did have the biting when being put away problem with the male CAG I have now. I got him from a friend and he was given up because he bit her all the time. When he first bit me I really was confused until I figured out it was only when I wanted to put him away. I'm harsh. I don't put up with biting. I laddered him. He makes to bite, I "AH! AH!" warn him; if he bites, I ladder him some more. He didn't bite me anymore. I don't know about now as he's now set up with a female and I don't interact with him anymore. The both want to kill me when I feed, but that's pretty much what I assumed would happen once they "set up house".

patdbunny wrote:

We have freak birds. They get tired of us and go back to their cage by themselves. Just this Saturday I had Ducky, Sam & Eric in my room on various play pens. At about 2 p.m. all three jumped off, walked around me, down the hall to Evil Chicken's room and climbed into their cage.

Scotty puts himself away all the time. He likes his house just fine. Scooter will if he gets very bored, but it takes him a lot longer to get there.

ScooterNScotty wrote:

Scooter will if he gets very bored, but it takes him a lot longer to get there.

That's normal - he's a conure! Everything's interesting!

patdbunny wrote:

ScooterNScotty wrote:

Scooter will if he gets very bored, but it takes him a lot longer to get there.

That's normal - he's a conure! Everything's interesting!

Yes. Also exciting! Have you seen "Up"? "Squrirrel!"

^ I love Up!

Rainbow used to bite too when I went to put her away like she was frustrated. It was annoying- not the bite to bleed sorta bite but a grind skin between beak repeatedly sort of bite. I think I did the "make cage more interesting" with treats hidden places thing along with ignoring the biting. The behaviour just seemed to fade away since it didn't get her anywhere.

ScooterNScotty wrote:

I do also try to give verbal warning that a trip back to the cage is imminent. I say, "Almost time to go home!", "Time to go home now!" and so forth. the combination of things has worked pretty well for the most part, but I do find I am constantly reinforcing what I want him to do, and this morning's regression was a bit frustrating.

See! They ARE children!

ScooterNScotty wrote:

patdbunny wrote:

ScooterNScotty wrote:

Scooter will if he gets very bored, but it takes him a lot longer to get there.

That's normal - he's a conure! Everything's interesting!

Yes. Also exciting! Have you seen "Up"? "Squrirrel!"

Yeah!