Attacking me!??any advice?

Ahhh ok so this morning me and Lorenzo had a really big fight, his agression is really getting too much now.
He's extremely spoilt and going through the "terrible 2s" stage. However long that stage lasts. He's testing my limits and patience.
Basically as I mentioned in a previous topic, he BITES, really hard! mostly when he doesn't get what he wants. as in if im leaving the room and can't take him with me, he will bite. when i want 2 seconds alone and try get him to go to his playarea (i dont lock him up, i simply just want a few minutes alone) he will bite!
not just bite ATTACK. so today I was leaving the room to do dishes in the kitchen, sometimes i take him sometimes I don't, today I didn't want to. he flys onto my back and clings on, i try to shake him off and ignore him without making a fuss. He flys a 360 and is right back again, so this goes on a few times and im also ducking as he flies towards me so that he misses me and flies back to do another 360 and that i might be able to run out the room. today he full out decided to attack me because I just wouldn't let him stay on me. he'd come flying at me biting (not nipping) at any skin he could get, hed be stuck on my back getting at my neck and shoulders and it flipping hurts so im trying to shake him off (i cant really grab him plus hes in the centre of my shoulders, i cant actually do anything but shake around and jump until he'd hopefully fly off). I manage to shake him off and he flies round and just keeps attacking! When i try to tell him to step up on my finger to get him off me he just drew blood, not once but multiple bites. eventually i couldnt take it anymore and had to actually towel him and get him back in the cage and hes been locked up since (last hour or so). I don't know what got into him but i think he has way too much freedom and dominates me.

If me and the boyfriend are snuggled up watching a movie or if im giving him a kiss, lorenzo gets super jealous and will attack us both as the attention is not on him. its really akward as im trying to give my boyfriend a kiss and I can look up and theres lorenzo on his shoulder starring at me 1cm from my face....with a "try that again and ill bite your lips off" look. and he'll force himself between us and tug and pull our faces, nip ears etc. and if we still ignore him then it's attack mode again and he will puff up and at lightening speed go for any skin available (feet are his favorite). and we need to hide under the blanket so he cant get us!haha. it is ridiculous. he doesn't care how big you are or how tough you are he will never back down.

I can give him any treat possible on his cage to keep him occupied, toys, games etc but he will rather be right next to me to control what I do.or just take his treat and eat it by me. I dont want to force him into his cage, rather make him want to go into it but like this morning i had no choice. haha and when you get him into the cage he's so angry! attacks his toys, bangs on the bars and bells, crawls up and down relentlessly. only now an hour later has he finally calmed down and has started to preen himself on his ropeswing.

Soooo big bird rant over hope i made a little bit of sense.Im just confused why he's so dominating against me when i give him everything he wants (well except for the fact that he wants to sit on my shoulder 24/7, eat everything i eat before me, drinking everything i drink before me, give me permission to leave the room and then having to be with me when i do, not being allowed to show attention to anything or anyone but him...or actually anyone in the room doing anything but showing him attention- even if he doesn't even like them!)
and if theres any tips out there on what i can do without causing permenant behavior damage. should i just give him some actual cage time and hope that the terrible 2 stage will pass soon enough?

ya it's just getting really hard he's such a sweetheart when he wants to be but he's liturally like this when he wants to be and then a second later will turn to .
Im actually considering to give him a little wing clip, just so that he learns who dominates who again and that he'd have to earn the privledge to sit on my shoulder without just flying when he wants.


= Jess

all this =

It sounds like he needs to be reminded you are the boss. I know my advice will be unpopular but I'd have him clipped. He needs to be more managable and well behaved and sometimes you have to go back to basics.

I would actually make him spend more time in his cage. It sounds like he's so used to being out of the cage and with you that he sees anything taking up your time as a threat to his relationship with you.

Since you said he's two, it could be hormones as he's entering that puberty stage. In that case, the only real way to deal with hormones is to decrease daylight hours, decrease room temperature and make sure you're not stimulating him by petting his back or other sensitive areas.

I personally would only clip as a last resort. But if you can't get him to accept some boundaries and realize that he can't be the center of your world 24/7, you may have to.

Julie and Kayla both said it, I think it sounds like he thinks he owns you. I personally wouldn't clip him YET, as you made it sound like he's a very good flier and, besides just making him angry, he might hurt himself if he doesn't understand right away that he can't do what he used to be able to.

Just confirming what Kayla said, it sounds like he needs more cage time. Get him toys, foraging stuff, WHATEVER he needs to realize that he does not need to be on you all the time. I don't know how you let him crawl all over you and your bf while you're tryin' to be all cuddly and watch a movie, that'd drive me crazy! haha. I'm certain more people here will have a lot of great advice, too. Hope he cools his jets so you can get back to having your little angel!!

I agree with giving him more things to occupy himself with.

I would set up multiple foraging devices and have him work at getting part of his meals, and hopefully this will stimulate his mind away from you.

Hmm I could be wrong but I think if he's clipped and is unable to get to you, the intense frustration might bring adverse effects such as screaming and *possibly* plucking.

I think encouraging Lorenzo to think and work on his own, is a good way to give you two a bit of a break.

The deal with flighted birds (any birds really that go spoiled nuts like this) is that they're not mentally stimulated. I think a lot of people think that by allowing their birds to be flighted in the house is enrichment and mental stimulation enough. I don't believe so.

It's like having an acre of land, letting your dog run loose on that acre almost 24/7, give him the best foods, treats every day, tennis balls all over, toys all over, but the dog is not obedience trained or otherwise given any behavioral guidance; and the dog still destroys your stuff on the porch, jumps on people, menaces people who come on the property, and is overall an uncontrollable nuisance.

Left to their own discretion they express their unguided energies in activities that displease us.

I clip my birds so I can take them out with me everywhere. That's my mental stimulation for them. It's like taking a dog out on leash and having regular polite walks. The dog learns how it's expected to behave when out on walks and the dog's mentally stimulated by the exercise and new experiences; my birds learn how they are to behave when out in public and they are mentally stimulated by the new experiences.

Flighted birds that never leave the house. I see it like if I could never leave my 10 acres except to go to the occasional doctor visit (how fun. . . NOT). I think I would be mentally distressed in no time, even if some one were to bring me gourmet meals ever day, toys, all the latest x-box games, satellite TV, etc. I'd still see people/my family leaving the property and going "somewhere", but I could never follow.

I think birds are sentient enough to see that you leave and go "somewhere" and are gone for hours on end without him. If you were the one who could never leave the house, would you be clinging to the leaving person and doing everything in your power to keep them with you or to take you with them?

Personally, I think a flighted bird set loose in a house is still a bird in a glorified guilded cage.

If you want to keep him flighted I think you should teach him targeting, tricks, recall, etc. Basic obedience for flighted birds. It will mentally stimulate him and engage his thinking mind. He'll pay more attention to you and what you're telling him. It won't be so much of this desperation that he can't go with you. He'll look to you more for guidance than fighting with you for what he wants. You'd need to do this every day even after his behavior improves.

Disclaimer: Read the disclaimer in my signature.



Editing to add: I don't think clipping him is going to solve your problems. There are clipped birds that behave as Lorenzo does. It's about his mental state and keeping him mentally stimulated. I think it takes more than just foraging activities. Foraging activities are a "base" starting point, but there needs to be more.

Since everybody else is chiming in i will too,You've a long row to hoe.It's going to take time and dedication to fix this.I'd put off clipping if i could,but i doubt you'd had this problem if he was clipped.He wouldn't have the option of being with you all the time (or when ever he wanted) he'd have more alone time.I feel there are times now when you need to PUT him in his cage for some time out,maybe let him out as soon as he calm down and is quiet ,cool ,calm and collected,(short periods as possible),Reward him by letting be with you only when he behaves. I'm sure he'll be pissed,angry and vindictive but your in a battle(war) to restore some sense of order here,what's happening now is chaos.Your going to have to be the big bird in the flock that he;s used to controlling This whole process will be very hard on him and you/bf.When you give attention (pets,treats etc) do so in small amounts for a limited time(be controlling) and don't turn your back (ignore).the smallest bit "old Behavior" from him.This will not be an easy fix and there's no majic pill.Be strong and dominate the situation,don't put up with any crap and this will pass quicker (less painful on all involved). IMO Start now and in the future do as Barney Fife used to say"Nip it in the Bud"
I feel the need to edit;use the ideas supplied above when he in his cage and out,(foraging ,toys,,training,walks,baths, etc) some thing to do other than obsess over you. His biggest reward will be spending time with you(your attention) and how much of that is too much will be a fine line to walk. good luck and i'd like to help all i can so let me know if you want more cheap advice as things progress or deteriorate.

Just so you know - my experience with rehabbing behavior problems has been it takes 3-6 months if all goes well and smoothly. Keep in mind I was rehabbing birds that came from some one else. I think they rehab faster in a new environment with a new owner. For you I'd expect it to take possibly longer than 6 months so don't give up too soon.

Good luck to you.

I don't have much to add, but I'm reading with interest because I think if don't take care with Scooter he could get quite spoiled as well, and in a similar way.

When it comes to the clipping question, I think I'd let everyone's safety be the primary guiding issue. If he's flying at you and your bf, attacking and breaking skin... in that situation, I'd seriously consider it if cage confinement didn't do the trick. I'm growing more and more towards favoring clipping for the reasons Roz cited, but in this case and in a household where you've made efforts to support flight, I'd let personal safety by my guide.

One tactic that has worked fairly well for Scooter when he starts to get bossy and bite, e.g., to avoid being put away is to try to set things up so that he has at least the appearance of choice in the matter. I've tried to nurture a "polite ask" to stay out as an alternative to a bite, I've tried to not react to the bite (can be difficult) and I've tried to reward lavishly the eventual decision to go home It's probably not the perfect approach -- I seem to be re-fixing the same problem over and over and he's not uniformly obedient. Sometimes it takes may repeated attempts on my part before he willingly decides it is more fun to go in than to keep coming out for a minute and being asked to go back again.

This is a bit of an aside, but I don't think that you can take outside a clipped bird more often than a flighted bird. Both need to be harnessed in my opinion because freak accidents happen where a bird will flutter in panic and get hurt or killed.

Some care is needed with a clipped bird, but not as much IMO. The more "severe" the clip, and the less adept the flyer, the less likely a flyaway/blowaway could occur. And you can open and close doors with considerably less risk. Scooter in the clip we have him in, I'd hesitate without a harness. Scotty with the clip he had when we got him, I'd be much more comfortable taking out in calm weather. Not now, he's got his flights grown in. Clipping does not take the risk to zero but it does reduce it considerably.

Rosco went from super sweet to everyone to a bit of a monster literally overnight about 4 summers ago.

It took a month before I could take him out and handle him as he just looked a little bit like evil. It was devastating.

Husband couldn't handle him for a few years, and when he did, he'd have a full snow suit on, hat, goggle, gloves...in the house...in the summer. Rosco would bomb dive and attack him otherwise.

With patience, perseverance, and bribery with food Husband can now pick up Rosco, and they can hang out. It's rather neutral and not loving as it was before, but they've learnt to co-exist.

He's still very caique like, and we know to read his body, feather, eye, and vocal language - if he's NOT in the mood to come out or be handled, he gets a time out and we give each other our space. He's like a broody teenager in that way

He has more good days than bad days now.

I take/took of my very clipped birds out with out a harness. Juniper and Sparrow stay stuck to me like glue and I have trust built with them. They are clipped so all they can do is flutter safely to the ground, don't know what the difference between them being in a harness on the ground or not is. I suggested she clip Lorenzo so at the most, the can't fly around attacking her or while she is with her boyfriend. Doesn't sound safe for anyone involved.

Come on Jess, how goes the battle?

Many thanks for all your comments:)
I won't quote everything but i'll talk about some of the points that stood out to make it easier.
Right so first the clipping non clipping...he is a good flyer so yes it could possibly backfire and cause more behavior problems if hes stressing himself out for not being able to go where he wants anymore, also he wouldn't understand why from one day to the next he can't fly anymore.
SNS said I should consider my own safety and everyone else says to do it as a last resort and that's exactly what I'll do:)
Only the last resort thing is not far away since I've had this problem for quite some time and have tried most of all the options pointed out in the other comments.

to lyz: the Bf and my alone time----yes it does drive me crazy thats the problem haha. We found out that my vuvuzella from africa (that horn they use for soccer) scares lorenzo like nuts. odd thing as hell sit on it when its upside down and chews on it for ages but the moment im holding it he'll stay far back with panic calls. Using it to our advantage now and just keep it near if we want some peace and so far its working but i bet he'll get used to it soon enough.you just cant relax, even me if im having a bad day and im really on a shorttemper mood and theres this bird non stop flying on and nipping me everywhere for attention.

to patbunny: I completely agree that a bird is much more stimulated if he could travel outdoors more. I heard on some parrot video that parrots need those little adventures during the day to see something new, even if the man of the house is busy fixing something in another room- the parrot can join him and sit there in that room to watch him.
I really want to take him outside, id take him everywhere with me if i could but 1-he's flighted, 2- he refuses to wear a harness.
and as they say, even clipped it's risky that the wind doesn't catch them or that they get freaked and get injured by falling in the wrong place.
I only have a small flat and theres a big kitchen downstairs, most of the time or at least once a day i take him with me to the kitchen where he might help do some dishes, say hi to any neighbores that are about and fly around a different room.
if the weather is nice ill take him outside in his old little cage to sit outside with us but he doesnt seem to enjoy it much because he has to be INSIDE the cage.
and like i said in a previous post i took him to my gym when i used to work there once or twice and that was for pretty much the whole afternoon and he still was a brat when we got back- didnt seem to appreciate anything:(

Foraging things- I've been trying, we are limited to foraging toys that you can buy off ebay and websites, I bought a few nut foraging things, like blocks of wood with nuts in them and he has to get the nut out...he has never touched it once.
I did the shoe thing with the peanut- like the video:) that works but just for a few minutes. I give him pinenuts (i think thats what they are called, the little hard brown ones) and he needs a bit of time to break through one. but all these things only work a few minutes.
I have those little cat balls which hes in love with at the moment, shakes them about the room. So ive tied some paper in them, put some treats in and he has been playing with them on the top of his cage, maybe the only thing he plays with but hes not interested in any toy inside his cage so if i give him more cage time it will be hard to occupy him.

What is the recommended cage time? i have no idea as hes only inside at the moment at bedtime. he doesnt see it as his home, just where his dry food is and where he sleeps or where he gets locked up for being a brat.
yesterday morning i tried the advice and when he woke up i only uncovered him, i didnt let him out (usually i let him out) and boy did he start screaming and shouting 15minutes later wondering why the hell i didn't let him out.lol
like a crying baby i guess the mom just has to learn to ignore it and let them learn for themselves.

I did buy him this lovely large cage (some of you know that) in hopes it would help him but anything between him and me is badthing for him.
he has difficulty occupying himself at this stage.
any other foraging ideas, when you say he needs to find his food? i tried to put seeds inpaper but he didnt figure it out haha, just threw it to the floor.

oh my word im typing too much, sorry for anyone forced to read this haha, just trying to cover everything.

oh yes to kay- sorry i didnt mean that he was 2 years old, just that hes going through the terrible 2s stage. its basically the same problem i had with my first conure and a bird specialist came in for his behavior problems (screaming). when most parrots are around one they act like a 2 year old human child and try to test their limits with people. i first thought it was the hormone season and seeked advice but was told he's probably too young for hormones and that it was more likely the "terrible 2" stage again.
i believe in it, the way he wants to see how many times he can fly onto my head and attack me until i flip. how long he has to scream until i open the door....etc.
really just like a child.

Boredom- im here most of the time and driving me up the wall seems to occupy him for the most of it. when im out the tv is left on for some noise. he has a large cage and various play swing areas in the room full of toys. i do training with him- i have been slack at it lately but was told by another professional that targetting and training will help stimulate him and even those few minutes a day would see an improvement. its funny the moment i bring the clicker out he stands in line for the whole training session. the moment i stop- back to disobedience. and right now i have really had no time for the training with my new work and all (which is why i couldnt post for a while either).
but yes i will continue to trick train on schedual say twice a day for 10-20 min session and just force myself to do it and make the time for him. give him more cage time (the moment i have a rough idea how much is enough to start with), will look up more foraging ideas and he just needs to deal with it---he needs to stop relying on me as the entertainment and occupy himself.

ill try bare it out a bit longer and yes if nothing changes soon i might have to consider the clipping (they will grow back regardless) but it would make him realize who's boss i believe. just havent got the heart to do it yet.

henpecked- " i doubt you'd had this problem if he was clipped"
and i really wish i would have kept him clipped a bit longer when I first got him. alot of things i would have done differently. but i always have this problem, with my previous animals too much. i spoil them way too much and end up with problems like this. haha can only imagine what ill be like with kids.
you know the turning my back thing to ignore him?....ive tried that but he just hops onto my shoulder and starts pulling my face chirping haha. like with my boyfriend, if he doesnt get that attention and im giving the attention to my boyfriend (both of us pretending hes not there) hell push himself between us, nipping, clawing, knocking anything until one of us has to acknowlege his pressense lol.

haha sorry for the MASSIVE reply, and sorry for taking so long to reply, i did write something the other day and then pressed the backspace button by mistake and lost everything. then didnt have time till now to post.
sorry to amke you read everything, thanks for helping me out

henpecked- " i doubt you'd had this problem if he was clipped"
Well that might not be completely true, i meant he might have learned to be on his own more if not given the choice to fly to you .Hey life is a learning experience and hind sight is 20/20.Good luck and keep us informed,would really like to see you all be happy.

I would just ignore the screaming, honestly. When you wake up and uncover the cage, just go about your day. Eventually he'll learn that screaming doesn't mean you get attention and the longer he screams and misbehaves, the longer he'll have to be in the cage.

I only really give undivided attention to my birds for about 2 hours a day. Their cage doors are always open and they're free to go in and out as they please, but they're not on me constantly. The budgies aren't very people friendly anyway, but Cheney Bird is fine with this and has learned to entertain himself with his toys.

If Cheney Bird is screaming for attention, I usually talk to him for a few minutes and stop. But he does this so rarely that it's not really a problem for us. It was only a problem for us when he was extremely hormonal.

I would make his cage super enticing to be in. It sounds like he's never really learned to amuse himself because he's always had you for that, and that was never a problem until he started being a jerk. Put his favorite treat in there or his favorite foods and shut the door. He needs to learn that his cage is his bedroom and something enjoyable, not a prison cell that means punishment.

idlepirate wrote:

(...)but i always have this problem, with my previous animals too much. i spoil them way too much and end up with problems like this. haha can only imagine what ill be like with kids.(...)

I believe in that short quote is your answer for your problem Unfortunately my boyfriend tend to spoil his pets too and I'm the one who had to be the "strong" one.
You can't do that or later you have to take consequences. You know how hard is to me to ignore my birds calling me? Sometimes I react, and sometimes I want to go and pet them, but I have to put limits, to not be available for them each time. It's hard, I agree.

Living with a conure screaming is AGONY. It nearly drove my husband and I to divorce, no lie. I imagine Lorenzo is more like a sun/jen then a GCC. You have my sympathy, friend.

Margaret wrote:

idlepirate wrote:

(...)but i always have this problem, with my previous animals too much. i spoil them way too much and end up with problems like this. haha can only imagine what ill be like with kids.(...)

I believe in that short quote is your answer for your problem Wink It's hard, I agree.

Ditto. Put on your therapist hat - What would you tell parents if this were their 12 year old spoiled to no end child who's going around beating other kids up, disrespecting the parents, escalating to smacking on mom's boyfriend, getting caught smoking in the boy's room, shoplifting, etc. My experience in family law with a teen like this was he kept getting into juvenile hall (juvenile jail) and was facing being taken away from his parents. The analogy to a bird is the bird eventually losing its home.

I have independence tips on my blog. But my tips are intended to prevent problem behaviors. I don't know how well they'll work for a bird that already has problems:
http://staringatbirdsandgoats.blogspot.com/2011/05/bird-tip-more-independence.html
http://staringatbirdsandgoats.blogspot.com/2011/05/bird-tip-do-not-fall-for-jedi-mind.html
http://staringatbirdsandgoats.blogspot.com/2011/01/bird-tip-teach-independence-to-reduce.html

As for the taking the bird to work with you all day, how often did you do that? Ducky is out and about with us at least twice a week. If you only took him to work twice it wouldn't have made much of a difference in his socialization/stimulation.

Leaving him in the cage in the morning doesn't really work/it's a bad time because they have a bunch of pent up energy from resting and being cooped up at night. Cage time after he's flown around for awhile and gotten rid of some of his energy and after some human attention, that's when it will be most successful.

Target/Trick training - You’re doing it in formal 10-20 minute sessions. It needs to be more a way you live with the bird from moment to moment. What you’re experiencing happens to championship obedience dogs (not all, but it happens). The dogs are perfectly obedient during the obedience competition and then are absolutely out of control once out of the competition area because the handler is not enforcing the commands and requiring obedience out of the competition setting.

This is why I don’t like clickers. I’m not saying clicker/marker training is bad. It’s just hard for us humans to wrap our heads around this is a way of living with a bird and not an isolated moment we interact with the bird with a clicker. The clicker is not magical. *click*click* is merely a marker. There are other markers that are easier to use at any moment that a bird can learn to associate such as - “Good Bird!” “Good Loro!”
Try not to use words you say frequently such as “yes” or “ok”.

So since the marker training does work with Lorenzo, just not when you’re done with the formal training session, you need to do the targeting etc. at random times throughout the day and not just during training sessions. Think of training sessions as the time to teach him something, and then what you’ve taught needs to be utilized outside of training sessions in the real world - Like you going to classes to be a therapist, after the class is over you need to implement the skills in real life.
Teach him the “stay” command. Teach him the “place” command - go to a particular spot when told. Those are things that will be useful in daily living.

What happened to your first conure?

PDB said"As for the taking the bird to work with you all day, how often did you do that? Ducky is out and about with us at least twice a week. If you only took him to work twice it wouldn't have made much of a difference in his socialization/stimulation."
I find that my birds love a routine but hate it when it's not there.If i pet and love on Jake every nite at the same time for the same amount of time it causes problems. She starts to fuss wanting her usual,but if i do thing different all the time she's happy and doesn't expect things.I don't do showers every,don't feed exactly the same time,try to break any routine with the birds.They seem more open to new things and not near as fussy.Just my 2 cents worth.I think a routine is bad because they adjust to it so quick and stress when it's not there.The same is true when interacting with Loro, he's expecting to be the center of your attention because what's the way it's always been.